No I get it. The majority of my self taught fundamentals were eked out with pool balls on a 10' Brunswick type snooker table many many years ago. The lower cushion height made the table much faster than the GCs of the day. It was all pool though. Pool cue, pool stroke, pool stance; all pool. I recall I wasn't even aware of what snooker players shot like. I have since learned to get down on the stick and make damned sure I'm hitting the shot but it's still pool. Just more accurate than it might've been without snookerish stance.
Cynergy 10.5 also good for Pool-Billard?
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
You are quite mistaken on this one. Earl went through a phase where he played like a 15mm tip and was able to rip it back like with any other cue.
That's Earl on good cloth - maybe even fuzzy cloth. My second cue was an Adam Rubber Duck it had close to a 14 mm tip and yes I could draw with it easily One length from a length on new cloth but that's it. I'm talking about a 13mm tip wedging the bed and the ball where a smaller tip would get through. That's simple physical dimensions. Compare to those Fouette shots where the cue has to glance off the edge of the ball. Not gonna happen with a 13mm tip at the bottom. Nuther issue is my hands are too small to get sufficient elevation with a long bridge but that's another problem.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
I can't really think of a physical reason either but my experience mirrored that of other posters.... upon returning to the game after a long lay off I couldn't game my regular 11.5mm tip. I was getting unintended side and missing shots I shouldn't. So I switched to a 13mm and my performance instantly improved. After a month or two of shaking rust and grooving my stroke, I was again precise enough to play my preferred 11.5mm. Low sample size? Maybe. But the 13mm was def 'easier' to play with and seemed more 'forgiving'.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Yes, I get that saying Earl can do it is kinda like saying well Tiger can play this shot, so a weekend hacker should. But, the point is that I think you are mistaken in your assertion that there is some physical limitation on how 13mm tips can get through contact near the miscue limit. I play a big 13mm tip sometimes (in the Earl fat wrap style to boot) and I have no issues zipping the ball back with it. There is no shortage of pros who've played 13mm tips who can draw the ball a ton. The physical limitation you describe just isn't so.
Go back and read the series of my posts or take my word on this post. The assertion is based on the 13mm will contact the bed before a 12. 99 or less, allowing lower contact before scooping. That's it. The rest is me trying to correlate that notion to the faults in my stroke.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
If the cue touches cloth before or at contact, it will strike below the miscue limit anyway so the point is moot. It has plenty of clearance if hitting above miscue limit. Coming into the cloth sooner after CB is gone affects nothing. No scooping.
I just bought one of those marked training balls and a 13mm tip hits well above the limit on the horizontal. The shaft laying flat on the table won't get under the limit. It's the scoop effect that limits the usable speed with a normal "level" stroke. It's only with more elevation than my hands can produce at the proper distance that the tip will strike far enough off center to produce that burnout draw. It's doable off the rail but not every shot is so convenient. The only gain I've experienced so far is I have more confidence stroking right at the scoop zone.
I would think that, if you aim the center of the tip at a particular point on the side of the cue ball for spin, a smaller tip will actually contact the ball a little further off center than a larger tip. If true, that could make people think the smaller tip imparts more english or is less forgiving.
Mise well jump into this one too. Could be the shaft is too skinny for your bridge.
Since the smaller tip <can> be located more precisely, players may get more futzy with the aiming and throw off everything else.
Since the smaller tip <can> be located more precisely, players may get more futzy with the aiming and throw off everything else.
What brand of marked training ball? If the top edge of a horizontal 13mm shaft laying flat on the table isn’t below the miscue line, then the ball is marked wrong (e.g. my Rempe ball is wrong). The actual miscue limit is 14.3mm from the table, plenty of clearance for a 13mm shaft. You’re making decisions based on wrong assumptions.
It's one of those generic red and yellow balls off Amazon. Since this is still going, I have this problem where I can hit "the bottom" of the ball and get nothing but stop. Less speed gets the draw but not as much as I'm going for. Unless I jack up - like as much as shooting off the rail, I can't hit outside enough to get good draw action. In all cases, the only miscues happen by scoop or off axis hits. I aim cue ball last so I have a pretty good idea of where I'm hitting the ball. And once again, this is not new tournament cloth by any means.
There's no way the tip will reach the outside ring on a Rempe ball unless you shoot down at the ball and orient the ball accordingly. A 5mm tip might. Don't know if that will produce any draw.
I think you have the wrong idea of where the miscue limit is on a CB. Like I said before, the rings on the Rempe training ball are wrong - wildly wrong.
Here is a 13mm tip making contact just on the safe side of the miscue limit - the 3mm contact patch will be right against the limit. This is a Brunswick Centennial ball, so the edge of the stripe is exactly 50% of the radius (not all striped balls on the market are exactly 50%). The butt of the cue is resting on the end rail, so it’s as level as possible. Note how there is plenty of clearance for the shaft:
Now here is the cue in the exact same position, but I’ve swapped the ball to the Rempe without touching the cue. Both the black circle and the red circle are WAY outside the miscue limit:
And this is what max draw tip position with a 13mm tip looks like on the Rempe from the shooter’s perspective:
If this doesn’t convince you that your 13mm shaft isn’t the thing holding you back from good draw action, I’m not sure what would. But it’ll be my last attempt either way.
Of course @dr_dave has more on the topic here.
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Is it possible to have even a just short thread here on this forum without someone mentioning this?
Sure enough, page 2 and it's already in full swing.
Might be a good idea to tell that to the players who use 13mm tips. May of the Asian players are in the 12.9 and 13mm category.
Hi is one, Ko bros and others are in this group too.
This way at least they know it's physically impossible for them to do a power draw with their shafts.
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
I did it with tongue in cheek lol as you said, people here could do with a new catch phrase
My point is, people can use what they are comfortable with, there is no denying that this shaft was made with a market in mind, the Chinese-8 market in particular... it's made for sales, not performance...
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
There is some truth in the effect different tip size, flexibility and taper play etc. - that's obvious. Whether it really matters all that much... questionable. I like that Shaun Murphy is experimenting in snooker, one of the first players to travel with differing cues, which he uses based on the table, humidity in the arena etc etc. Moving away from the single cue that we learn and love forever ideology that most of us are taught (treating customs like some special samurai blade that belongs to only us... whether this was simply taught to jack up prices of customs over production cues... that's another debate).
To what extent we gauge the effect of differing tip size, taper, flexibility etc, and how much real quantitive information we can collect regarding this specific impact on our own unique playing styles (enough information to impact our game at least) is questionable. It's a case of placebo and comfort more than anything. We play with what we know, or with what someone better than us uses, or tells us is good to use for the most part.
With regard to pool, all I see is marketing aimed at simple mindset from the cues coming off of production lines... I have a lot of time for the aesthetic beauty on the custom side of things... whether it's worth the pennies... well, that's for the consumer to decide in this system.
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tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I think the makings on the Rempe ball are very close to the center of your cue, not the contact point, although it looks like the ring would still be at the absolute limit, if not over. Interestingly, my Rempe ball retains the least chalk mark of any of my cue balls.
Because of the cue's natural elevation it's even slightly higher than that. And for some (longer) shots you actually get better power draw hitting a little above the miscue limit.
In other words, cue size is no excuse for weak draw.
pj
chgo
Half the radius according to everybody. The pics you took show the ideal draw spot for ideal conditions, not the limit. You seem to be fixated on the prescribed miscue limit. This is a discussion, not a safety battle.
Anyway Dr. Dave stated (IIRC) that the top edge of the tip can strike at the limit without miscue. Regardless, I've already posted the issues I'm experiencing and some possible solutions - and the miscue limit isn't one of them. The miscues are caused by scooping and/or off vertical axis contact.
And the Rempe ball - it's a ball. You can't contact the outside ring with a draw stroke unless you jack up and orient the face perpendicular to the tip. I'd guess the ring is in the fouette zone. I can't do those either.