D Appleton is against pivoting for spin ?

garczar said:
guy just won't give up. wtf.
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What guy won't give up...the guy that knows for a fact that it works based on experience as a pro instructor and other pro players that do it, or the guy with no experience that is the self-imagined foremost authority on everything pool?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How is a more elevated stroke more precise and repeatable?

pj
chgo
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Thanks for asking. The average AZ member is skilled, but many players with otherwise solid games struggle with draw. They are then taught to chalk extra carefully, forcibly accelerate the stroke, aim and bridge very low if they struggle, and sometimes are told to snap their wrist to force better cue tip contact. In contrast, the stroke I recommend requires nothing but a regular stroke (so you might recommend it only on that basis, since you suggest wrist moves for swoops are needless complications and here is a simpler kind of draw stroke with less wrist than many use).

By "precise" I meant that players with decent draw but who often draw too far or too little are able with this new stroke to get precise draw in feet or inches at will. This is a great little draw stroke particularly for small cue ball moves in 14.1 runs. By "repeatable" I mean drawing the cue ball off a full hit straight as a laser back towards the bridge hand every time, not off to one side.

You have a lot of pool knowledge and wisdom and I regard your comments, therefore, I'd be delighted if you'd hit some of these shots and report back. Start with a shorter than typical bridge, practice stroke a few times at center cue ball. Then before your final stroke, elevate the stroke hand slightly then take no special kind of wrist-y or accelerating "draw stroke". Due to the cue's elevation, you should feel a slightly different feel at contact, almost as if your tip is adhering longer to the cue ball. Again, that's feel and the only mechanical advantages I claim are easier-to-shoot draw shots due to the stroke arm's new angle for feel, and also the tip's more downward path at the time of cue ball impact.

Again, you play at a high level but if I can help struggling players by teaching alternative concepts, I'll do it.
 
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MajorMiscue said:
It won't affect my game. I won't be swooping any CBs.
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I hope--respectfully--that means you've actually tried the stroke but don't do it any more, because when people recommend alternative theories I test them and I learn. I can even learn from bad advice, but we learn a lot more at pool by doing.
 
garczar said:
guy just won't give up. wtf.
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I can only speak for me. I will sometimes give up on debates.

I will not give up on giving students alternative methods that cut their development time into fractions of the usual "I know you're struggling, just hit 5,000 more of those shots using the classic techniques you've not mastered the first 5,000 times you tried them . . . "!

Are the teachers right who say every student must do X to become successful in pool? That cookie cutter approach doesn't hold true for other stick-and-ball sports, so why for pool?

I ask myself today, "Should I sneer at a pro who swoops for english that he's doing things the 'wrong' way or should I rather try to learn from his unorthodox technique since I admire his many runouts?"
 
SpiderWebComm said:
What guy won't give up...the guy that knows for a fact that it works based on experience as a pro instructor and other pro players that do it, or the guy with no experience that is the self-imagined foremost authority on everything pool?
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Neither of you guys are capable of giving an inch, and seem to live for these inane debates.

So you’re a pro instructor, huh? Thats the funniest thing you’ve posted yet!

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SpiderWebComm said:
How is a more elevated break stroke more precise, repeatable, and powerful over a level stroke? Maybe this guy knows something you don't. Or maybe you don't know something that he does.

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Look more closely. Buste returns to level way before he strikes the ball. The rise on his backstroke is to gather momentum, not to "swoop" at the ball.
 
MajorMiscue said:
Look more closely. Buste returns to level way before he strikes the ball. The rise on his backstroke is to gather momentum, not to "swoop" at the ball.
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I never said anything about swooping the ball or even thought about it. And he was not level "way before" he struck the ball.
He was "close" to level when he struck the ball from being so high. The point is for the "purists" who believe everything in pool should be in straight lines which is worthless and stupid to go outside of it with a seemingly uncontrolled move that produces nothing more or greater than keeping it level from start to finish. Who else have you seen that breaks that way?

If you want to talk about swooping, go back to his practice runout of the rack where you mentioned "hiding the English". Nothing was hidden. If you can't tell what English he used on every shot the way the CB reacted after contact with each OB,
you either don't know what to look for or are clueless to begin with. And to get it there, the tip of the cue had to be angled and struck on specific parts of the OB whether starting from low left at the cloth or presetting it at the obvious where other players set it.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I never said anything about swooping the ball or even thought about it. And he was not level "way before" he struck the ball.
He was "close" to level when he struck the ball from being so high. The point is for the "purists" who believe everything in pool should be in straight lines which is worthless and stupid to go outside of it with a seemingly uncontrolled move that produces nothing more or greater than keeping it level from start to finish. Who else have you seen that breaks that way?

If you want to talk about swooping, go back to his practice runout of the rack where you mentioned "hiding the English". Nothing was hidden. If you can't tell what English he used on every shot the way the CB reacted after contact with each OB,
you either don't know what to look for or are clueless to begin with. And to get it there, the tip of the cue had to be angled and struck on specific parts of the OB whether starting from low left at the cloth or presetting it at the obvious where other players set it.
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Here, learn something:
 
Citing examples of unorthodox yet successful techniques accomplishes little. When “standard” recommendations are made by knowledgeable instructors, they are made because the overwhelming majority of players will learn more quickly and permanently. Of course there will be the odd one for whom an unorthodox technique will work. But It’s better to play the percentages and deviate from there cautiously and judiciously, true?

Doug (Not even close to being an instructor.)
 
SpiderWebComm said:
So, what's it called when all of his practice strokes are low extreme left on the CB right at cloth level with the final stroke striking anywhere and everywhere on the CB to make the OB?
How else would it be classified? DYNAMIC REDIRECTION? How is the English hidden when it's apparent the way the CB reacts after contacting the OB and then a rail or rails?

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It's called misdirection.
 
MajorMiscue said:
It's called misdirection.
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For what reason? That's total bullshit. Another pro player he's in a match with could give a rat's ass what type of english he's using while at the table. All they care about is will THEY get back to the table to run their own racks to win the set.

They can't control him or need to learn anything which is why they're pro players at his level to begin with. Most of the time position is done by getting the angles for multiple shots on the table well in advance with speed. If it's 9-ball, the entire rack is seen in the beginning right after the break as far as where they want to be for the angles. There could be an odd ball they see as a problem and are forced into a safety with or without english.

Amateurs use english more than pro players because they don't have control of the angles, speed, and ability to see how the entire layout needs to be set up and played. Bustamante has a style of playing that's somewhat unique unto himself and
that's about it.

I really get the impression you aren't that good of a player at all. But like any and all forums, everyone is an expert and a champion at the subject and yap a good game.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
For what reason? That's total bullshit. Another pro player he's in a match with could give a rat's ass what type of english he's using while at the table. All they care about is will THEY get back to the table to run their own racks to win the set.

They can't control him or need to learn anything which is why they're pro players at his level to begin with. Most of the time position is done by getting the angles for multiple shots on the table well in advance with speed. If it's 9-ball, the entire rack is seen in the beginning right after the break as far as where they want to be for the angles. There could be an odd ball they see as a problem and are forced into a safety with or without english.

Amateurs use english more than pro players because they don't have control of the angles, speed, and ability to see how the entire layout needs to be set up and played. Bustamante has a style of playing that's somewhat unique unto himself and
that's about it.

I really get the impression you aren't that good of a player at all. But like any and all forums, everyone is an expert and a champion at the subject and yap a good game.
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And I get the impression you spend a lot of time defending yourself. Are you supposed to be a. professional instructor?
 
MajorMiscue said:
And I get the impression you spend a lot of time defending yourself. Are you supposed to be a. professional instructor?
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Your impressions are those of a newbie that doesn't know his butt hole from a hole in the ground. Just another big mouth with nothing better to do. You joined this forum in April of this year and already with close to 2,500 posts. I'm not a professional instructor but certainly have spent a lot of time with a good number of them in person over the years. I also play with a pretty good pro player every few months. Here's his record over the years as a player:

One good turn deserves another. What's your background in instruction, playing, or whatever else you find interesting?
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Your impressions are those of a newbie that doesn't know his butt hole from a hole in the ground. Just another big mouth with nothing better to do. You joined this forum in April of this year and already with close to 2,500 posts. I'm not a professional instructor but certainly have spent a lot of time with a good number of them in person over the years. I also play with a pretty good pro player every few months. Here's his record over the years as a player:

One good turn deserves another. What's your background in instruction, playing, or whatever else you find interesting?
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You didn't just try to impress me with someone you played's statistics, really? Man, that's really weak and you represent yourself as an expert with no credentials. Looks like you are the big mouth to me.
 
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