Dead Caroms Seem to be Inconsistent

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cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Over the last few years, I've noticed that often some carom shots that appear to be 'dead', aren't. I've missed them in tournaments, in gambling sessions, in practice. But I can't seem to figure them out. I'm talking about dead caroms when two balls are frozen or near frozen and there is a line between them to a pocket. Sometimes they go, sometimes they don't go. Yesterday I got fed up with not understanding why they seem to be inconsistent, so I set up shots like this and practiced them:

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Depending on which ball I hit, either one of those balls should go in the corner, right? Or sometimes just one of the balls is lined up to go. Maybe I am not seeing the line correctly. Sometimes the shot goes, other times I notice a 'skidding' effect and the ball goes off line. Maybe the skidding effect is an optical illusion to me, I don't know.

Other carom shots, I am pretty adept at. Shots like A and B for example I don't have trouble with at all:

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And most caroms where the cueball caroms off an object ball and hits another ball and pockets it, again, I am pretty good at judging.

But for some reason dead caroms that involve two object balls frozen or near frozen, I am afraid to shoot at sometimes, unless the balls are close to the pocket.

I have a very good understanding of frozen combinations, and know about CIT and SIT etc. Could they be playing a factor in caroms? I don't see how, when I hit a carom full in the face and the ball misses by two or three inches.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Over the last few years, I've noticed that often some carom shots that appear to be 'dead', aren't.
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I've found caroms ( I call them plants) to be fairly predictable, but there are some variables that need to be taken into account.

With touching or nearly touching balls, an acute directional hit will come off at very close to 90 degrees. But when struck more full, the effect can vary considerably and transfer via draw or follow can become significant.

When balls are separated you have to consider that the first ball can pick up some topspin off the nap before it collides with the plant ball.

Maybe you could show some actual shots that you found went astray and see if we can determine the cause.

Colin
 
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The key as mentioned by Colin is the ball to be pocketed arriving or coming off the other ball with little or no spin (top or bottom). If you shoot the shot with draw on the cueball, you will impart top spin to the carom-ee and make it go long. If you have topspin on whitey, the ball you hit will pick up some back spin and go short. These are all fine.... as long as you account for the spin.
Also speed of the shot is important. If you use a medium or even a firm speed, the ball will slide. If you shoot it soft, it will start to roll with top spin and go long.
Its not enough that the balls are lined up dead, you have to allow for anything you add to the mix in position play etc. Same thing with frozen combinations, they may be setting dead, but you still have to hit the back ball in the right spot or you will throw the ball you are trying to pocket off line.
Chuck
 
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For a practice session I suggest you clean the balls first and make sure they are the same weight.
 
Using a lot of english, right or left, will also minimize the tendency of the object ball to curve off line.

Jim
 
I tend to believe that rather than assuming that caroms are very inconsistent, that instead, when it comes to caroms, there are infinate variables that can have an affect on the results.
dave
 
In the first example the line is drawn off center to the pocket and the 7 should go regardless of being frozen. If the line is to the center of the pocket, with the cue ball positioned where it is, neither ball is easily pocketed unless the pockets are very large. If the balls are frozen, either ball will travel along the tangent line you've drawn. If the CB was almost anywhere else than shown, one of the balls can be easily made as described by Colin even if they're lined up to miss.

The other problem with these frozen balls is: Are they REALLY in perfect alignment? As you mentioned frozen balls are sometimes hard to visualize the line. Shooting straight in, frozen balls, you must be absolutely certain they line up. But if you have some kind of an angle they become easier.

Someone mentioned above about using a clean set of balls to practice. This could be where some of the inconsistancy is coming from. Most pool hall rarely clean the balls. With dirty balls, more english is transfered from CB to OB. I always carry my own set for this reason, but I'm lucky, I only need 3.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Over the last few years, I've noticed that often some carom shots that appear to be 'dead', aren't. I've missed them in tournaments, in gambling sessions, in practice. But I can't seem to figure them out. I'm talking about dead caroms when two balls are frozen or near frozen and there is a line between them to a pocket. ...
Click to expand...
Are you familiar with the double spot shot at one pocket? When two object balls are frozen, the struck ball is not expected to go along the kiss line. Instead, it will usually travel forward of the kiss line (partly into the other ball). There is a system for aiming such shots called the "Ten Times Fuller" system. It was discussed frequently in RSB and in an article or two in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html
 
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