I would mention that no doubt.
Dealing with cheats
- Thread starter Effenbobsaget
- Start date
It’s a legal rack about once. The main rule says the balls are placed randomly except the 8 and one stripe/solid at the corners. That doesn’t look random and wasn’t given my recollection of seeing it on YouTube. But it could be random. So you see how it goes. The second time when the “ random” rack that is identical to the first “random” rack reacts the same you know there is a reason for the unusual pattern. A warning then would be appropriate. Third time I think it’s clear it isn’t legal. With or without warning. The applied ruling language doesn’t save this one I don’t think. After the break it was clear the pattern was different from a pattern created by alternating some balls.
And it did give a distinct pattern in my recollection. I don’t like the UPL pattern rack, but that one doesn’t do what Coreys rack did.
The reason they came up with one solid in one corner and a stripe in the other is that they did statistical analysis in the 90's that showed that was the only thing that made a difference. Whether it's possible with a second ball break and one in the side to better control it, is another story. I guess it's possible, but for Christ's sake can't anyone who uses their skill and their intellect to develop an advantage use it???
What they did to Corey when he developed the soft break and started dominating in the late 90's/ear;y 2000's was bad enough, Give the guy a break and quit raining on his parade...
What they did to Corey when he developed the soft break and started dominating in the late 90's/ear;y 2000's was bad enough, Give the guy a break and quit raining on his parade...
First off let me admit I haven't kept up with current associations and rules, I am not interested in tournament play for myself. Never was much of a tournament player but I did once have a rulebook or two and read them cover to cover.
Now on to the meat of the matter. No way can "random" and "pattern" be stretched to mean the same thing. Pattern racking is common as dirt and I can pattern rack as I throw balls in the rack. That doesn't make it legal though! "Random" means just that. You should be able to throw the balls in a rack blindfolded then only move the one, the eight, possibly one corner ball as required. While I like alternating stripes and solids, that is not random racking.
Random racking will sometimes give an edge to a group of balls, nature of the beast. Looking things over, pattern racking is fairer, if defined such as the alternating outside balls. Pattern racking to give one group an advantage when you are racking and breaking is BS!
I really think that at this level of pool development all games that it matters, 6,8,9,10, and a few outliers like three and four ball, pattern racking should be required with the only variation being mirror image for left hand breakers.
There is no way to enforce random racking. I can always get at least thirteen out of fifteen balls where I want them and usually all fifteen while seeming to be random racking. If random racking can't be enforced, a set pattern can be and that is what should be done.
Some argue that random racking means put the balls where you want them. Nothing random about that!
Corey's rack and break appears illegal and is according to old rules. Somebody trying to streamline rules took out some things I suspect. While Corey badly bends rules when he can, I have never seen him break any. Were I an official and requiring a headball break wasn't in eight ball rules, I would give one warning and then an unsportsmanlike call. First unsportsmanlike costs a game, second a match.
One of Corey's more interesting maneuvers was to pull everything beyond the first two rows back playing one pocket at the DCC somewhere around 2006, might have been a year either way. Slug rack city and apparently legal at the time as he made no effort to hide it.
I didn't notice a rule change but something must have been said, he wasn't doing it the next year even though it had taken him to the semi's with over three hundred players in the event.
Hu
yea thats racking without a neutral person. part of the game. when we racked for our opponent you got in trouble giving a loose rack, plus a tight rack the balls dont open as much in onepocket, so you tilted it a tiny bit and if he didn't realize it his break in one pocket suffered, don't worry he did it back to you as well.
The word "random" is a misnomer. Any pattern can be the result of a "random" rack, and each pattern is equally likely. APA changed the wording in their rules from "random order" to "any order" years ago to eliminate silly arguments about whether the racker did it randomly. As Hu suggests, one could define the "fairest" pattern for each game and require the balls be racked in that pattern, but that's still a pattern that someone, given sufficient time, will be able to use to their advantage. Maybe that's ok, as it is a skill that can differentiate one player from another, but so is changing up the arrangement of the balls in the rack. No matter what the rule is, someone will find a way to use it to their advantage. Even with the "opponent loads the rack" rule, it's easy to imagine someone who is racking for a weak breaker loading the rack to be unfair, knowing they will most likely get the first shot after the break.
It's random the first time. The wording is fine; people just don't do it. You can add me to the list of people who don't care how people arrange the balls as long as they are tight and the breaker follows the breaking rules. It drives me crazy when people finger the balls and pretend they are "just trying to get them frozen."
Yeah, just trying to help!(grin) Somebody used to have a rule about not touching the balls after they were racked. Sometimes there is a legitimate issue but when so both players will have the same issue.
For those that don't know: Anything but one pocket, look for any gaps and break to the strong side that doesn't have any. If the rack has gaps both sides, call for a rerack.
One thing that I have found improves my opponent's ability to rack, I look over their first rack a minute or two until they ask if there is a problem.
"No, just looking for something to ex-plo-it."
For some reason that has an ugly sound to it and people are usually very careful racking after that!
Hu
What are they considering random though. solids and stripes or different numbered balls in different positions?? Just playing devils advocate here, one could argue that it is random because different balls were in different positions even though the stripe/solid layout was the same. Or maybe just swapping solids for stripes could be considered random.
Back in the appa days there was a rack procedure where the balls alternated stripes/solids on the outer rim and a 'V' of solids formed in the inner minus one spot where the last stripe sat. Only way to rack with alternating balls.
My understanding is, that rack is no longer allowed.
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Some players have a slight shift to the balls. The rack tilts slightly to the left or right looking down table, depending on which of their eyes are dominant. Break from the side the rack leans away from as long as the head ball is tight. Never bust a loose head ball.
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No it isn't which is why all the rules orgs put the random language in the rules. Same thing happened with his 9 ball soft break.
I guess they don’t spell it out in the rules. But it is clear that there is a difference between rotation games and eight ball. In rotation the non random advantage can come through numerical placement. In eight ball it is suit not number. It is kind of easier to see than legislate. Drafting rules of any sort is hard.
Like obscenity though, you know non random shenanigans when you see it. Sometimes rules drafting and legalistic interpretation doesn’t work that well, and the next innovation comes quicker that the next rule change. You need a king/ dictator to make a ruling. Sounds harsh, but a strong tournament director makes a difference. Kind of like Augusta National and Cliff Roberts. “ We don’t do that here…” often provides a better atmosphere than, “ Well, the rules policy committee needed to issue a decision but they haven’t taken a vote yet so the rules committee hasn’t addressed this in the rule even though the last rule amendment created an ambiguity that the subcommittee to the executive committee was supposed to refer to the rules policy committee for consideration by the rules committee and then the board.”
Just saying. Simple but not always easy.
If you see somebody pattern racking when the rules say random, start taking pictures of racks. Those pattern racking usually know it is illegal and the images will tell the story.
I was sorely tempted to pattern rack playing barbox eight ball years ago. I was making four balls most breaks, rarely only three. With the accepted pattern I was making two solids, two stripes. That was enough to open up tables but I could have mapped which four balls were going and changed my rack to have all the balls that fell be of one group. That would have been discouraging!
With only five balls of each set on the table it was usually pretty easy to get out anyway.
Hu
I was sorely tempted to pattern rack playing barbox eight ball years ago. I was making four balls most breaks, rarely only three. With the accepted pattern I was making two solids, two stripes. That was enough to open up tables but I could have mapped which four balls were going and changed my rack to have all the balls that fell be of one group. That would have been discouraging!
With only five balls of each set on the table it was usually pretty easy to get out anyway.
Hu
dquarasr
Registered
Ok, spill it (if you would like): how TF do you pocket 4 balls on a 7-ft bar box?!?
DM if you don’t want to share.
Ok, spill it (if you would like): how TF do you pocket 4 balls on a 7-ft bar box?!?
DM if you don’t want to share.
Two balls went directly into the foot pockets, two banked off of the side rails and went into the same pockets.
I put the cue ball one diamond out from the head rail and generally a little off center, the edge of the cue ball would be on or near the centerline of the table.
I used a ton of low and a little left regardless of where I put the cue ball. I hit the cue ball hard, maybe 3/4 to 7/8 of balls to the wall make customers and bar owners get whiny, although it was hit so far off center that it didn't make a ton of noise. This was with a cue off the wall, no break cues yet. I think I aimed a little off center on the one ball but I don't remember. Like many, I took a few decade break from pool.
I don't do any tournaments or gambling lately, especially not on a bar table. This was on the old Valley type tables, no idea if it would work on a Diamond.
This break worked in the seventies and eighties. It should work now with maybe some further adjustments needed but I don't know. I can tell you the first two balls went in very near simultaneously, the second two that banked did the same. Aside from making four balls it was a visually pleasing break.
Let me know if you get it working, the same for anybody else playing with it. I had a bar table before hurricane Ida and never even thought about trying to get this break working again.
Hu
there was a guy in the pac. northwest that broke the balls harder on a bar table than any living human ever did. his name was joe ballantine and he was big and played decent. very hard to beat and stayed up and wouldnt let you quit until he was broke or you was.
problem was he stayed conscious for 4 days at a time. you had to sneak out saying you were getting food or something, and instead catch a few winks. he had no concept of the time.
third or 4th day he crashed and if you still were around you got the money. he upped the bet along the way also.
he routinely broke two to four balls almost every break on those bar tables.
bad loser, didnt hurt the player, but often turned over the pool table and other things.
problem was he stayed conscious for 4 days at a time. you had to sneak out saying you were getting food or something, and instead catch a few winks. he had no concept of the time.
third or 4th day he crashed and if you still were around you got the money. he upped the bet along the way also.
he routinely broke two to four balls almost every break on those bar tables.
bad loser, didnt hurt the player, but often turned over the pool table and other things.
I could break a good bit harder backing up to the first diamond on the table and having more freedom to move. I don't know how hard I broke but I broke hard enough that other patrons and the owners of places would ask me to back off. I was turning wrenches or climbing two or three hundred feet of iron making my living. Often had to rope up all the tools and material too.
Side note: When they came out with cordless drills I thought they were the greatest thing since bottled beer after having to layout and pick up 600-1200 feet of electrical cable a day.
Hu
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
The only answer...