Declaration of "not an instructor" status -- do we have it all backwards?

[justadub]

Rick, it appears that you and a few others are hung up on the "3 days", which I believe you are taking out of context from the other thread where the guy (can't remember his name, sorry, and using my phone makes searching it troublesome) is going to have a "3 day lesson" with Scott Lee. Scott did make some mention about getting him into the program after all that, but I think you are jumping to conclusions.

I'm not going to speak for Scott, and I know that you two don't see eye to eye, but just because Scott mentioned that, doesn't necessarily mean that he will automatically become certified at the end of that weekend. Perhaps that is only going to begin the process.

In any event, you only have the limited discussion that was seen here to base all of this vitriol about "3 days" over. None of us, other than Scott and the poster, know the full discussion, and now the forum is blown up over the prospect of becoming an instructor in "3 days".....

You've been provided links to the program. Read them fully, so that you really understand the program that you seem so concerned with. Or stop questioning Randy, Scott and their colleagues over this issue. Because they have provided you the material a couple times now, and you refuse to read it.

 

[ENGLISH!]

i have to say im not an instructer
but have taken lessons from some certified and not

especially in the beginning taking MANY lessons from instructors is the easiest way to progress at the rapid rate Perhaps & perhaps not. From what do you base this statement? Some, or perhaps even many, might say that there is a real advantage to figuring it out on one's own.

its easier to learn things the right way from the beginning than trying to break old habits:wink: As I asked Shaky1, just who decides wht is 'right', he used the word 'proper'. Often times instructors of different backgrounds disagree & have different opinions. So, who decides what is right, proper, & correct?

im amazed that this thread which has nothing about it to teach people
how to play better has had what i would expect without knownig for sure the most posts of any in this forum:confused
Just what does that say? Is it important? Is it controvercial? Is it a topic worth discussion in an attempt to perhaps improve the forum & get more traffic & perhaps improve the site as well?

bbb,:

Just what are you trying to say?

'Regrards' &

 

[KRJ]

especially in the beginning taking MANY lessons from instructors is the easiest way to progress at the rapid rate

Quote: English: Perhaps & perhaps not. From what do you base this statement? Some, or perhaps even many, might say that there is a real advantage to figuring it out on one's own.

'Regrards' &

Well, it just might be the thousands and thousands of students who took lessons and increased performance rather quickly. And no, MOST people do NOT want to figure it out on their own, because folks do not have the time to try and figure something so complex out on their own.

Where would Tiger Woods and other greats be if he left it up to himself to figure out golf, and bypassed all his instructors over the decades?? The very "few" who did it, well, good for them, but for us mere mortals, the help is appreciated I believe.

And it seems just a bit odd to me, that for whatever reason you don't believe instructors perform a necessary service and that folks should figure it out on their own, yet here you are, trying to provide advice so folks can shoot better?? Am I missing something, I mean seriously, it seems just a tad bit contradictory you even participating in this forum, does it not ??

 

[Okie]

Rick, it appears that you and a few others are hung up on the "3 days", which I believe you are taking out of context from the other thread where the guy (can't remember his name, sorry, and using my phone makes searching it troublesome) is going to have a "3 day lesson" with Scott Lee. Scott did make some mention about getting him into the program after all that, but I think you are jumping to conclusions.

I'm not going to speak for Scott, and I know that you two don't see eye to eye, but just because Scott mentioned that, doesn't necessarily mean that he will automatically become certified at the end of that weekend. Perhaps that is only going to begin the process.

In any event, you only have the limited discussion that was seen here to base all of this vitriol about "3 days" over. None of us, other than Scott and the poster, know the full discussion, and now the forum is blown up over the prospect of becoming an instructor in "3 days".....

You've been provided links to the program. Read them fully, so that you really understand the program that you seem so concerned with. Or stop questioning Randy, Scott and their colleagues over this issue. Because they have provided you the material a couple times now, and you refuse to read it.

I have first hand knowledge of 3 people in OKC who took a course in Dallas and came back calling themselves certified instructors. However, I believe their official status is recognized instructors.

Ken

 

[Neil]

I have first hand knowledge of 3 people in OKC who took a course in Dallas and came back calling themselves certified instructors. However, I believe their official status is recognized instructors.

Ken

If they came back as recognized instructors, then it is apparent that they passed the requirements to become one. Do you realize that there are requirements to getting a "certificate"? Joe Blow down at the local bar cannot just pay and attend for three days and then be an instructor. You have to show previous knowledge and pass tests to get certified. Do you see some problem with that?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, it appears that you and a few others are hung up on the "3 days", which I believe you are taking out of context from the other thread where the guy (can't remember his name, sorry, and using my phone makes searching it troublesome) is going to have a "3 day lesson" with Scott Lee. Scott did make some mention about getting him into the program after all that, but I think you are jumping to conclusions.
Bruce, please read posts #'s 8,10,11,15,18 (Lee say's that he will be certified), 19, 20 & 37

I'm not going to speak for Scott, and I know that you two don't see eye to eye, but just because Scott mentioned that, doesn't necessarily mean that he will automatically become certified at the end of that weekend. Perhaps that is only going to begin the process. See post #18

In any event, you only have the limited discussion that was seen here to base all of this vitriol about "3 days" over. None of us, other than Scott and the poster, know the full discussion, and now the forum is blown up over the prospect of becoming an instructor in "3 days"..... Bruce, I did not blow it up. I merely asked a question regarding a subject that I did not bring up & expressed my surprise by the answer.

You've been provided links to the program. Read them fully, so that you really understand the program that you seem so concerned with. Or stop questioning Randy, Scott and their colleagues over this issue. Because they have provided you the material a couple times now, and you refuse to read it. Bruce, please do not command me to do anything because you do not have the right to do so.

Bruce,

The above referenced posts are from the 'tell me what you think' thread by boyersj in the Ask the Instructor sub-forum.

It does seem that there has been a mis-understanding. If so, it might be one that could have been very easily corrected by Mr. Lee. Indeed, on the other hand, it may be one that was contributed to by Mr. Lee.

In any case, I have expressed my surprise at '3 days' & have now learned that it should or could take at least 2 years to become a 'certified' instructor & that certainly seems to be more reasonable.

Your post would have been better received if had been in private.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Well, it just might be the thousands and thousands of students who took lessons and increased performance rather quickly. And no, MOST people do NOT want to figure it out on their own,You seem to be implying that I said that. What I said was, 'Some, or perhaps many, might say that there is a real advantage to figuring it out on one's own'. Many is just more than a few & many is not most. because folks do not have the time to try and figure something so complex out on their own. Who has determined that it is so complex? How many pool players are there that are playing that have never taken a formal lesson & 5 year olds can hit a baseball moving at 30 MPH.

Where would Tiger Woods and other greats be if he left it up to himself to figure out golf, He was taught by his father probably at least until college. and bypassed all his instructors over the decades?? The very "few" who did it, well, good for them, but for us mere mortals, the help is appreciated I believe. And I would agree, any help should be appreciated.

And it seems just a bit odd to me, that for whatever reason you don't believe instructors perform a necessary service I've never said that, but I would not use the word necessary in contrast to that statement. and that folks should figure it out on their own, I've never said that either. See my actual statement above. yet here you are, trying to provide advice so folks can shoot better?? Am I missing something, I mean seriously, it seems just a tad bit contradictory you even participating in this forum, does it not?? Not to me. How so in your opinion?

I doubt that you have read all of my posts & you shouldn't. Why should you? But, I have stated that I certainly see the possible benefit that lessons might provide to certain individuals. However I would not say that that is an absolute. One would need to find the appropriate instructor for their needs or intentions. For beginners or novices starting out with a lesson of basic fundamentals would most probably be a very valuable benefit. Is it necessary? Certainly not with the advent of the internet & there always was the library. Some, however, do learn better from individual personal attention & personal private lesson might be more beneficial to them. I have never stated that no one should take lessons. I have never stated that anyone should not take lessons.

Why would I be opposed to lessons as I have been coaching & teaching sports since I was 21 years old. However I might take exception with certain teachings just as I did with some coaches teaching certain restricted baseball swings before ever even finding out if a hitter can execute a more powerful swing effectively. Some on AZB keep trying to put words in my mouth or attribute statements to me that I have never stated instead of simply asking an honest question simliar to yours.

I stumbled onto AZB while buying a shaft. I found it interesting at the time & decided to see if I could find something that might help my game. That did not happen until I stumbled upon CJ Wiley. I have also stated that I am more than willing to try and help anyone that I can. Where's the contradiction?

So to make it clear, generally speaking I am not opposed to lessons nor am I opposed to instructors.

If you have any other questions, it might be better if you asked in private. Certainly not for my sake as I certainly have nothing of real value to lose here, but for the benefit of another, private may be the way to go depending on what any other questions might be.

 

[justadub]

Rick, I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings, as that certainly isn't the intent. I don't think that I'm being hurtful in my comments.

I posted this in the forum because there are others that are also referencing the "3 days" that has become part of the discussion. You seem to have had the biggest issue with it, as you bring it up more frequently than the others, so I addressed it to you, combining it with the other points that I made.

I am not "commanding" you to do anything, but I do think it's a bit unfair to keep making comments about how easy it seemed to get "certified" when members of that organization have provided links to the material that details the program.

Again, I'm sorry that you feel hurt that I didn't make this a PM. I do believe this was the appropriate place for the comments, as it applies to more than just you. I think you add a lot to the discussions here on AZB, and am not in any way "calling you out". I just think that in this case you (and others) could be jumping to conclusions, that is all.

 

[sfleinen]

Rick, I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings, as that certainly isn't the intent. I don't think that I'm being hurtful in my comments.

I posted this in the forum because there are others that are also referencing the "3 days" that has become part of the discussion. You seem to have had the biggest issue with it, as you bring it up more frequently than the others, so I addressed it to you, combining it with the other points that I made.

I am not "commanding" you to do anything, but I do think it's a bit unfair to keep making comments about how easy it seemed to get "certified" when members of that organization have provided links to the material that details the program.

Again, I'm sorry that you feel hurt that I didn't make this a PM. I do believe this was the appropriate place for the comments, as it applies to more than just you. I think you add a lot to the discussions here on AZB, and am not in any way "calling you out". I just think that in this case you (and others) could be jumping to conclusions, that is all.

Bruce:

I don't think you should apologize. Honestly. You quite eloquently stated the flaws in Rick's argument and stance, and you should know by now that when cornered like this, this is how he responds -- "you don't get to tell me what to do," "it would've been appreciated more if this were communicated to me privately," nit-picking single words out of his own sentences and writing paragraphs about his usage of those words (where every other word is underlined), etc. You should know the drill by now.

Rick is definitely hung up on this "3 days" thing -- as well as other folks are -- which was your point, and was best served for public consumption as you did. And yes, if he'd taken the time to read the links for himself, instead of posting the questions here (asking to be spoon-fed), it would save on a lot of unnecessary extra traffic in this and other threads.

I haven't been keeping up with this thread as much as I'd like, but I check in from time to time (hopefully once a day).

Keep on keeping on.

Best,
-Sean

 

[TheThaiger]

The cheerleaders are out in force again...

 

[justadub]

The cheerleaders are out in force again...

I trust that you would prefer that everyone be blunt, and not caring of anyone else's feelings, correct? Cut to the bone, fire away... Sorry, not the way I'm wired. I will always try to be as conscientious as possible, and if that annoys you, too bad. (There, is that better?)

 

[TheThaiger]

I trust that you would prefer that everyone be blunt, and not caring of anyone else's feelings, correct? Cut to the bone, fire away... Sorry, not the way I'm wired. I will always try to be as conscientious as possible, and if that annoys you, too bad. (There, is that better?)

Did I read you say you 'know what you don't know' recently? You don't.

Blindly supporting the status quo can be admirable. It can also be downright stupid. The omnishambles that is pool in America will continue forever if you care more about feelings than the game itself.

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran,

Thaiger is referring to the other thread regarding the seemingly simplistic qualifications to become a PBIA 'certified' instructor.

Has there been a miscommunication? Does the initial 3 day session result only in 'recognition' or can it be a 'certification' as well? If the 3 day session is passed, can that person say he is 'certified' or can he only say that he is 'recognized'. If it is only recognized & not certified, why was that not pointed out by Scott Lee & others in that thread. It might have saved much time & 'discussion'.

How much more study does it take to go from 'recognized' to 'certified'? I certainly do not know but perhaps BCA guidelines are being circumvented.

That does not really matter in the realm of this discussion but I think it cetainly has a bearing in the other discussion.

Thanks in advance &

Rick, there has always been a bit of confusion with the words 'recognized' and 'certified,' because the process is a certification process, yet the entry level certification is called 'recognized instructor.' So it is confusing.

It's not entirely wrong for entry level instructors to call themselves 'certified' because they were certified to become recognized instructors.

What makes the process confusing is that the next level instructor is called 'certified.'

But back to the 3-day qualification thing: I don't know of any training instructor who will take someone off the street with no skills and then hand them a teaching certificate after 3 days. Everyone has their system of what qualifies a player to apply. For me, players will have to answer a pretty extensive questionnaire before I accept them as a potential instructor into my course, and they will still have to pass the tests I administer to them during the course.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

IMHO the problem with the sport is less so the instructors than the potential students. I teach golf and other sports also - but far less these days than I do pool. But what do I know that most golfers and tennis players have in common? Lessons received.

Most every golfer or tennis player who has tried the sport for even a few months has taken multiple lessons or clinics. But I got a call last night from a marvelous fellow who wants me to visit him for his first pool lesson, over 20 years after he started playing pool. We expanded the discussion to a group lessons for his APA team so everyone can improve and finally get lessons.

Although there are certain things about SPF, BCA, PBIA, etc. I'm not fond of, there are millions of students who need lessons and I recommend the above instructors when I'm not nearby or can't get there when asked. The bickering I see on these forums needs to stop and everyone should ally for the good of the students and the sport IMHO.

 

[randyg]

IMHO the problem with the sport is less so the instructors than the potential students. I teach golf and other sports also - but far less these days than I do pool. But what do I know that most golfers and tennis players have in common? Lessons received.

Most every golfer or tennis player who has tried the sport for even a few months has taken multiple lessons or clinics. But I got a call last night from a marvelous fellow who wants me to visit him for his first pool lesson, over 20 years after he started playing pool. We expanded the discussion to a group lessons for his APA team so everyone can improve and finally get lessons.

Although there are certain things about SPF, BCA, PBIA, etc. I'm not fond of, there are millions of students who need lessons and I recommend the above instructors when I'm not nearby or can't get there when asked. The bickering I see on these forums needs to stop and everyone should ally for the good of the students and the sport IMHO.

Matt

Help me out here, please.

What part of SPF are you "not fond of"?????

randyg

 

[randyg]

I have first hand knowledge of 3 people in OKC who took a course in Dallas and came back calling themselves certified instructors. However, I believe their official status is recognized instructors.

Ken

Ken. You are correct. Recognized is first.

One thing to remember is we also up-grade Instructors. Still a three day test class.

randyg

 

[boyersj]

I have been away from this forum, in training, and have now completed my pool school. I understand and respect that everyone has their own opinion. Over the years, I have read MANY books, and performed even more drills. I have had a practice routine, and played pretty well.

The three days that I just went through opened my eyes and provided more useful knowledge than a several years worth of independent study. I am not saying that to justify anything, I don't care what anyone else thinks, because the knowledge is now mine. Without mastering what I learned, I have confidence I will improve, significantly.

I now have a systemic approach to improve my pool shooting process. This process is measurable with data and based on scientific proven data. I will ask a few questions (anyone can answer), Do you know how far your tip travels after contacting the cue ball? If you do not know, then how do you know if you are doing it the same every time? If your tip does not go the same distance (within a reasonable variation) then how do you have confidence that you are repeating the same motion? If you are not repeating this same motion, how can our brain put these motions into your subconscious so they are "on demand, under pressure, in one try"?

I could teach pool to people before learning what I learned in pool school; absolutely I could help someone get better. I guarantee that I couldn't have instructed them to develop a measureable and repeatable enough process customized to their body that it became subconscious.

Do I know what I was taught well enough to teach someone else? Not yet, I need to master them for myself. I will be able to with practice on both developing those skills and to teach those skills to other players. Do I need to be certified to have the knowledge that I now have to assist someone to develop a repeatable process? No, but I definitely need that knowledge. For anyone who truly believes it takes multiple years to teach a player how to develop their own repeatable process, ask this: How many years does it take to figure out how to teach someone to tie their own shoes?

I am not saying that those years don’t have value – indeed they do. More knowledge is there to share. Better techniques to communication information have been developed. Going though a structured program and learning everything required to develop a repeatable pool process ensures a few things: I now know everything I NEED to know to teach myself how to become better. I now understand myself and how my body works to break bad habits and develop good habits that will enable me to get over my current plateau.

I want to thank Mr. Scott Lee for an unbelievably organized workshop that opened my eyes in ways that I never could have imagined. The depth and detail of information could not have been better and I aspire to instruct others in the same efficient and effective manner that I experienced. I look forward to the day when I can submit video of executing Mother Drill 5 to 100% for all 5 speeds, and Drills 6, and 7 to A+ level!

I also want to extend my thanks to RandyG for developing the course and the detail to the content. I will aspire to master the skills as a student and then develop skills to teach other students.

-Steve

 

[randyg]

I have been away from this forum, in training, and have now completed my pool school. I understand and respect that everyone has their own opinion. Over the years, I have read MANY books, and performed even more drills. I have had a practice routine, and played pretty well.

The three days that I just went through opened my eyes and provided more useful knowledge than a several years worth of independent study. I am not saying that to justify anything, I don't care what anyone else thinks, because the knowledge is now mine. Without mastering what I learned, I have confidence I will improve, significantly.

I now have a systemic approach to improve my pool shooting process. This process is measurable with data and based on scientific proven data. I will ask a few questions (anyone can answer), Do you know how far your tip travels after contacting the cue ball? If you do not know, then how do you know if you are doing it the same every time? If your tip does not go the same distance (within a reasonable variation) then how do you have confidence that you are repeating the same motion? If you are not repeating this same motion, how can our brain put these motions into your subconscious so they are "on demand, under pressure, in one try"?

I could teach pool to people before learning what I learned in pool school; absolutely I could help someone get better. I guarantee that I couldn't have instructed them to develop a measureable and repeatable enough process customized to their body that it became subconscious.

Do I know what I was taught well enough to teach someone else? Not yet, I need to master them for myself. I will be able to with practice on both developing those skills and to teach those skills to other players. Do I need to be certified to have the knowledge that I now have to assist someone to develop a repeatable process? No, but I definitely need that knowledge. For anyone who truly believes it takes multiple years to teach a player how to develop their own repeatable process, ask this: How many years does it take to figure out how to teach someone to tie their own shoes?

I am not saying that those years don’t have value – indeed they do. More knowledge is there to share. Better techniques to communication information have been developed. Going though a structured program and learning everything required to develop a repeatable pool process ensures a few things: I now know everything I NEED to know to teach myself how to become better. I now understand myself and how my body works to break bad habits and develop good habits that will enable me to get over my current plateau.

I want to thank Mr. Scott Lee for an unbelievably organized workshop that opened my eyes in ways that I never could have imagined. The depth and detail of information could not have been better and I aspire to instruct others in the same efficient and effective manner that I experienced. I look forward to the day when I can submit video of executing Mother Drill 5 to 100% for all 5 speeds, and Drills 6, and 7 to A+ level!

I also want to extend my thanks to RandyG for developing the course and the detail to the content. I will aspire to master the skills as a student and then develop skills to teach other students.

-Steve

Thank you Steve

Welcome to the P.B.I.A

Scott Lee is one of the very best!!!

randyg

 

[justadub]

Did I read you say you 'know what you don't know' recently? You don't.

Blindly supporting the status quo can be admirable. It can also be downright stupid. The omnishambles that is pool in America will continue forever if you care more about feelings than the game itself.

Quite a projection there, Tim. Going from my being civil in my conversation and discourse to the state of "pool being in shambles" is quite a leap. I had no idea of my potential impact.

Conversely, if more people were more civil towards one another, more could be accomplished, in my opinion. Disagreement is necessary for improvement of anything; being antagonistic and rude is counter productive to any sort of progress, and gets us bogged down into side discussions and tangents, much like you and I are doing right now.

I do not blindly accept and support the status quo. Nor will I automatically rail against the status quo. Tilt on, Don Quixote. Shake your fist and say "I'm not gonna take it any more!". See how far that gets you.

 

[justadub]

Congratulations, Steve. I expect you and Scott had a great weekend, and I hope you continue to update us on your journey through this process.

Very cool stuff.