Deflection question

R

riding9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm hoping somoeone can clear this up for me. First off I'm using a Predator Z2 shaft. The issue I'm having is after watching Lee Brett's DVD he says when using left or righ hand english that you should aim at the same point on the object ball that the cue tip is aiming at on the cue ball. I'm not having too much success with this. If Im using left or right I aim at the same spot on the object ball as I do when using center ball hit and still make the ball.

Why is the concept teached if aiming at the same spot works? Just looking for some answers so I can know which way to practice and show other people when they ask.
 
When using left or right english the aim is going to be subjective based on deflection....

I would hazard Lee's bridge length and choice of cue allows him to do exactly what you say he teaches... I would try lengthening your bridge length and see if that starts to make the info make sense....

I owe Lee a review and will try and watch the entire DVD this weekend so I am only going by your statement... I have not seen that part of the DVD as of yet.....
 
Deflection refers to the cue stick.
Squirt is the cue ball moving sideways off the cue stick in a off-center hit.

I thought Lee was just giving us an idea of how he aims with English.
randyg
 
riding9 said:
I'm hoping somoeone can clear this up for me. First off I'm using a Predator Z2 shaft. The issue I'm having is after watching Lee Brett's DVD he says when using left or righ hand english that you should aim at the same point on the object ball that the cue tip is aiming at on the cue ball. I'm not having too much success with this. If Im using left or right I aim at the same spot on the object ball as I do when using center ball hit and still make the ball.

Why is the concept teached if aiming at the same spot works? Just looking for some answers so I can know which way to practice and show other people when they ask.
Click to expand...
I didn't completely understand your question above, but.... It's important to know that different people see shots differently. Certainly different cues behave differently. Also, you will find that if you play on new versus old cloth, the aim for side spin shots will change much as the aim for side spin shots changes as you shoot harder. There is no single "system" that takes all of these things into account.
 
Understanding how throw and squirt(most people call it deflection) work in conjunction with each other will help you improve your game immensely. I don't know what your level of understanding is of these 2 phenomenon are so I will briefly touch on how they work. Throw works when you use english at slower speeds which makes the object ball differentiate from the line of aim in the opposite direction of the applied english. If you use left english it will make the object ball move offline to the right of the object ball line of aim to the pocket. The more tips of english and the softer you shoot the more offline the object ball will go.

At some point as you increase your stroke speed using english the cue ball itself will squirt(deflect) offline from the line of aim from the cue ball to the object ball. If you use left english and the cue speed is sufficient the cue ball will impact the object ball to the right of point that you are aiming at. The more tips of english and the harder the stroke speed the more the cue ball will squirt.

A key point to understand is that throw only works at very soft to soft speeds while squirt(depending on the cue) doesn't take effect until soft to soft plus and higher speeds. With cues that produce high squirt the speed ranges between throw and squirt overlap significantly making the aiming process much more difficult than it needs to be. This is where the beauty of the Predator(and other low deflection) shafts come in as they produce far less squirt than other shafts that are not designed to produce low squirt/deflection. With a low squirt shaft there is a small but significant range of cue speeds where you don't have to correct for throw or squirt/deflection allowing you to aim at the object ball contact point without making any adjustments. For my cue which has a Predator 314-2 shaft this speed range is just under soft to slightly under medium. As long as I keep to this speed range with a level cue and use the same amount(tips) of english I never have to adjust my aim for throw or squirt. The more tips of english you use the smaller the speed range will be. The level cue is necessary so you don't have to adjust your aim for swerve. On a decent table the speed range of soft to medium is more than enough to move the cue ball around the table on more than 90% of the shots you are faced with.

Some may say that I don't know what I'm talking about and this technique can't possibly work but I have been using it for years and it is what gives me an edge over my competition. I'ts a simple enough to test this technique to see if it works. Using a low deflection shaft simply set up a cut shot, apply 1/2 to 1 tip of left english with a soft stroke and shoot to pocket the ball without any adjustments to aim. If the object ball goes to the right of the intended aim point(pocket) indicating that throw is in effect very slightly increase your stroke speed until the ball goes into the pocket. This is the low end of the speed range to pocket the ball using english without making an adjustment. Next keep very slightly increasing your stroke speed until the object ball misses to the left of the intended point of aim indicating squirt has taken effect. The last speed increase where you pocketed the ball will be the upper cue speed limit that you can use without an adjustment with the amount of english used. I prefer to use 1/2 tip or less english to maximize the speed range that I can use. You do need good cue speed control to get the full benefit of this technique. It is also important to note that your soft might be different than mine but if you experiment enough you will find the correct speed range for you. This can also work to a limited degree for high squirt cues but the speed range will be much smaller making it a much less useful tool.
 
Very good post.

JLD said:
Understanding how throw and squirt(most people call it deflection) work in conjunction with each other will help you improve your game immensely. I don't know what your level of understanding is of these 2 phenomenon are so I will briefly touch on how they work. Throw works when you use english at slower speeds which makes the object ball differentiate from the line of aim in the opposite direction of the applied english. If you use left english it will make the object ball move offline to the right of the object ball line of aim to the pocket. The more tips of english and the softer you shoot the more offline the object ball will go.

At some point as you increase your stroke speed using english the cue ball itself will squirt(deflect) offline from the line of aim from the cue ball to the object ball. If you use left english and the cue speed is sufficient the cue ball will impact the object ball to the right of point that you are aiming at. The more tips of english and the harder the stroke speed the more the cue ball will squirt.

A key point to understand is that throw only works at very soft to soft speeds while squirt(depending on the cue) doesn't take effect until soft to soft plus and higher speeds. With cues that produce high squirt the speed ranges between throw and squirt overlap significantly making the aiming process much more difficult than it needs to be. This is where the beauty of the Predator(and other low deflection) shafts come in as they produce far less squirt than other shafts that are not designed to produce low squirt/deflection. With a low squirt shaft there is a small but significant range of cue speeds where you don't have to correct for throw or squirt/deflection allowing you to aim at the object ball contact point without making any adjustments. For my cue which has a Predator 314-2 shaft this speed range is just under soft to slightly under medium. As long as I keep to this speed range with a level cue and use the same amount(tips) of english I never have to adjust my aim for throw or squirt. The more tips of english you use the smaller the speed range will be. The level cue is necessary so you don't have to adjust your aim for swerve. On a decent table the speed range of soft to medium is more than enough to move the cue ball around the table on more than 90% of the shots you are faced with.

Some may say that I don't know what I'm talking about and this technique can't possibly work but I have been using it for years and it is what gives me an edge over my competition. I'ts a simple enough to test this technique to see if it works. Using a low deflection shaft simply set up a cut shot, apply 1/2 to 1 tip of left english with a soft stroke and shoot to pocket the ball without any adjustments to aim. If the object ball goes to the right of the intended aim point(pocket) indicating that throw is in effect very slightly increase your stroke speed until the ball goes into the pocket. This is the low end of the speed range to pocket the ball using english without making an adjustment. Next keep very slightly increasing your stroke speed until the object ball misses to the left of the intended point of aim indicating squirt has taken effect. The last speed increase where you pocketed the ball will be the upper cue speed limit that you can use without an adjustment with the amount of english used. I prefer to use 1/2 tip or less english to maximize the speed range that I can use. You do need good cue speed control to get the full benefit of this technique. It is also important to note that your soft might be different than mine but if you experiment enough you will find the correct speed range for you. This can also work to a limited degree for high squirt cues but the speed range will be much smaller making it a much less useful tool.
Click to expand...

Deffinitely a need to know if you shoot with a low deflection shaft.

I remember working with Bill some months before he passed. He was still like a kid in a candy store when it came to his pool game. He loved his pool for sure.

If there's any pool tables in heaven I'll guarantee that Bill is there.........
 
randyg said:
Deflection refers to the cue stick.
Squirt is the cue ball moving sideways off the cue stick in a off-center hit.

I thought Lee was just giving us an idea of how he aims with English.
randyg
Click to expand...

True.

I received Lees'DVD a few days ago. Since my PC is about 8' away from my table I was able to pause the video and move to the table.

I dont aim the way Lee does. Thats just the way he has trained himself to aim.

If you have the DVD - chapters 8, 9 and 16 are pretty interesting. Actually the whole DVD was very interesting. A ton of little things put together and explained very well.

John
 
Deflection

With all these variables to aiming with English, I recommend staying on the vertical axis of the cue ball as much as possible. You will pocket more balls and have more control of the cue ball.
 
JLD said:
Understanding how throw and squirt(most people call it deflection) work in conjunction with each other will help you improve your game immensely. I don't know what your level of understanding is of these 2 phenomenon are so I will briefly touch on how they work. Throw works when you use english at slower speeds which makes the object ball differentiate from the line of aim in the opposite direction of the applied english. If you use left english it will make the object ball move offline to the right of the object ball line of aim to the pocket. The more tips of english and the softer you shoot the more offline the object ball will go.

At some point as you increase your stroke speed using english the cue ball itself will squirt(deflect) offline from the line of aim from the cue ball to the object ball. If you use left english and the cue speed is sufficient the cue ball will impact the object ball to the right of point that you are aiming at. The more tips of english and the harder the stroke speed the more the cue ball will squirt.

A key point to understand is that throw only works at very soft to soft speeds while squirt(depending on the cue) doesn't take effect until soft to soft plus and higher speeds. With cues that produce high squirt the speed ranges between throw and squirt overlap significantly making the aiming process much more difficult than it needs to be. This is where the beauty of the Predator(and other low deflection) shafts come in as they produce far less squirt than other shafts that are not designed to produce low squirt/deflection. With a low squirt shaft there is a small but significant range of cue speeds where you don't have to correct for throw or squirt/deflection allowing you to aim at the object ball contact point without making any adjustments. For my cue which has a Predator 314-2 shaft this speed range is just under soft to slightly under medium. As long as I keep to this speed range with a level cue and use the same amount(tips) of english I never have to adjust my aim for throw or squirt. The more tips of english you use the smaller the speed range will be. The level cue is necessary so you don't have to adjust your aim for swerve. On a decent table the speed range of soft to medium is more than enough to move the cue ball around the table on more than 90% of the shots you are faced with.

Some may say that I don't know what I'm talking about and this technique can't possibly work but I have been using it for years and it is what gives me an edge over my competition. I'ts a simple enough to test this technique to see if it works. Using a low deflection shaft simply set up a cut shot, apply 1/2 to 1 tip of left english with a soft stroke and shoot to pocket the ball without any adjustments to aim. If the object ball goes to the right of the intended aim point(pocket) indicating that throw is in effect very slightly increase your stroke speed until the ball goes into the pocket. This is the low end of the speed range to pocket the ball using english without making an adjustment. Next keep very slightly increasing your stroke speed until the object ball misses to the left of the intended point of aim indicating squirt has taken effect. The last speed increase where you pocketed the ball will be the upper cue speed limit that you can use without an adjustment with the amount of english used. I prefer to use 1/2 tip or less english to maximize the speed range that I can use. You do need good cue speed control to get the full benefit of this technique. It is also important to note that your soft might be different than mine but if you experiment enough you will find the correct speed range for you. This can also work to a limited degree for high squirt cues but the speed range will be much smaller making it a much less useful tool.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why throw is reduced by having a Predator shaft? I've not found that to be the case, although I haven't played with many traditional shafts, so can't be certain. Throw is spin transference, isn't it? I would've thought throw is affected more by the newness and quality of the cloth, and the shininess of the balls, than the cue the CB was struck with.

One other thing: do LD shafts reduce the amount of swerve, in addition to the amount of deflection?
 
TheThaiger said:
... One other thing: do LD shafts reduce the amount of swerve, in addition to the amount of deflection?
Click to expand...
No. (Well, there might be some very slight effect but it will be tiny compared to the effects of elevation and amount of side on the amount of swerve.)
 
He was still like a kid in a candy store when it came to his pool game. He loved his pool for sure.
Click to expand...

Gene you sure described Bill to a T. When it came to pool he was always excited and wanting to learn something new. I sure did hate to see him go.

I don't understand why throw is reduced by having a Predator shaft?
Click to expand...

TheThaiger...I don't think I said anywhere in my post that a Predator shaft reduces throw. With any cue throw works best at very slow to slow cue ball speeds and is practically negligible at faster speeds unless you use extreme amounts of english. The slower the speed and the more the english used the better throw works. What the predator shaft does is greatly reduce the amount of squirt and increases the speed before squirt starts to take effect. With a cue that doesn't have a low deflection/squirt shaft, squirt will start taking effect at a much slower speed which is in the same speed range where throw takes effect. In effect a low deflection shaft has a speed range where throw is minimal or non existent and deflection doesn't affect the shot which allows you to aim without making an adjustment for english. Fortunately the huge majority of the shots in most pool games fall into this speed range.
 
riding9 said:
I'm hoping somoeone can clear this up for me. First off I'm using a Predator Z2 shaft. The issue I'm having is after watching Lee Brett's DVD he says when using left or righ hand english that you should aim at the same point on the object ball that the cue tip is aiming at on the cue ball. I'm not having too much success with this. If Im using left or right I aim at the same spot on the object ball as I do when using center ball hit and still make the ball.

Why is the concept teached if aiming at the same spot works? Just looking for some answers so I can know which way to practice and show other people when they ask.
Click to expand...

Rereading your post. That is Lee's style of aiming and it works for him but it may not be for everyone.

My style is to aim directly at the spot on the backside of the OB with the tip of my cue. I shoot thru the cue ball as if it doesnt exist, a ghost cue ball if you will. I have played this way for decades and its my style.
It doesnt mean that its the right way....its just my way. :smile:

Whatever you do find a style that makes sense to you and stay with it. There is nothing wrong with experimenting with other styles of aiming by the way.

You say you have Lee's DVD.......what did you think of chapter 16. Thats something there!

As far as deflection goes.....man I couldnt tell ya....been playing for over 50 years. I probably noticed it once and then corrected.

John
 
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Mark...Just FYI...NOBODY on Earth can control the CB. All we are able to control is the cuestick. With that we are able to control our ASS (Angle/level cue; Speed; and Spin). You should know this...I believe you do.:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

mfinkelstein3 said:
With all these variables to aiming with English, I recommend staying on the vertical axis of the cue ball as much as possible. You will pocket more balls and have more control of the cue ball.
Click to expand...
 
JLD said:
What the predator shaft does is greatly reduce the amount of squirt and increases the speed before squirt starts to take effect. With a cue that doesn't have a low deflection/squirt shaft, squirt will start taking effect at a much slower speedQUOTE]

I guess I just don't understand this. Based on Dr. Dave's experimants of speed and it's relationship to deflection/squirt: squirt/deflection is not altered by the speed of cue at impact. Has this been changed?


From Dr. Dave's article:
Diagram 2 shows experimental data for squirt measurements taken over a wide range of shot speeds. Many people think squirt is larger at higher speeds than at lower speeds. This “myth” is shown with the red curve in the diagram. As the actual data points show, squirt is very nearly constant over a wide range of speeds, for a given tip offset. This conclusion is in agreement with the “human robot” data presented in my September ’07 article. As with all of the graphs in this article, each data point represents the average of five trials taken at each setting (e.g., each speed in Diagram 2). I think one reason people sometimes think squirt increases with speed is because they might be including the effects of swerve in their thinking. “Effective squirt” (AKA “squerve”) due to both squirt and swerve does depend quite a bit on shot speed (see my October ’07 article). One final observation about Diagram 2: you might notice a small dip in squirt measurements at medium speeds. I’m not sure how to explain this physically, and it could even be a slight error introduced by how the machine functions. Regardless, it is a very small effect. I think it is safe to say that squirt is very nearly constant with speed and doesn’t increase with speed as the “myth” curve suggests.
Click to expand...
 
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Tennesseejoe said:
JLD said:
What the predator shaft does is greatly reduce the amount of squirt and increases the speed before squirt starts to take effect. With a cue that doesn't have a low deflection/squirt shaft, squirt will start taking effect at a much slower speedQUOTE]

I guess I just don't understand this. Based on Dr. Dave's experimants of speed and it's relationship to deflection/squirt: squirt/deflection is not altered by the speed of cue at impact. Has this been changed?


From Dr. Dave's article:
Diagram 2 shows experimental data for squirt measurements taken over a wide range of shot speeds. Many people think squirt is larger at higher speeds than at lower speeds. This “myth” is shown with the red curve in the diagram. As the actual data points show, squirt is very nearly constant over a wide range of speeds, for a given tip offset. This conclusion is in agreement with the “human robot” data presented in my September ’07 article. As with all of the graphs in this article, each data point represents the average of five trials taken at each setting (e.g., each speed in Diagram 2). I think one reason people sometimes think squirt increases with speed is because they might be including the effects of swerve in their thinking. “Effective squirt” (AKA “squerve”) due to both squirt and swerve does depend quite a bit on shot speed (see my October ’07 article). One final observation about Diagram 2: you might notice a small dip in squirt measurements at medium speeds. I’m not sure how to explain this physically, and it could even be a slight error introduced by how the machine functions. Regardless, it is a very small effect. I think it is safe to say that squirt is very nearly constant with speed and doesn’t increase with speed as the “myth” curve suggests.
Click to expand...

The only time I really notice deflection, either on my Pred or traditional shaft, is when I hit hard, with a lot of low English. Even then, it seems variable from shot to shot.
Click to expand...
 
TheThaiger said:
I don't understand why throw is reduced by having a Predator shaft? I've not found that to be the case, although I haven't played with many traditional shafts, so can't be certain. Throw is spin transference, isn't it? I would've thought throw is affected more by the newness and quality of the cloth, and the shininess of the balls, than the cue the CB was struck with.

One other thing: do LD shafts reduce the amount of swerve, in addition to the amount of deflection?
Click to expand...

No, throw is the OB releasing from the collision with the CB along a different path due to clinging...this is caused by the friction between the two balls (collision induced throw, which does indeed impart spin to the OB, made worse when the balls are dirty or covered in chalk) and spin induced throw (gearing effect during contact). English (side spin) can reduce the effects of throw or in some cases increase throw, if that's the desired effect (imparting gearing to a frozen OB to release it's mate on a more desirable path; think of a plant that's not quite on, but you can straighten it's path out by throwing the shot). As to your question on LD shafts reducing swerve, too, I absolutely agree with you...IMHO they do, and it's one of the reasons I don't like them--I depend on my ability to swerve or "wrinkle" the cue ball around interference. For me, it's more reliable than jumping, as I've done it my whole life and am pretty comfortable with it, but when I've tried a wide range of LD shafts, that's one thing I've noticed about them that's different to me. They tend to want to stay on a straighter path after contact with the tip--kind of the idea behind them. I also have trouble jumping with a LD shaft. Probably just me, but I don't have a problem jumping with a conventional shaft, just the hollow LD shafts.
 
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Scott Lee said:
Mark...Just FYI...NOBODY on Earth can control the CB. All we are able to control is the cuestick. With that we are able to control our ASS (Angle/level cue; Speed; and Spin). You should know this...I believe you do.:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Nobody on earth can control the cue stick. We can only control our arms. Nobody on earth can control their arms. We can only control our conscious thoughts to move our arms. Nobody on earth can control their conscious thoughts....

Yeeikes! Did I just present an argument for pre-determinism?
 
Control

FranCrimi said:
Nobody on earth can control the cue stick. We can only control our arms. Nobody on earth can control their arms. We can only control our conscious thoughts to move our arms. Nobody on earth can control their conscious thoughts....

Yeeikes! Did I just present an argument for pre-determinism?
Click to expand...

Pretty soon we will just be imagining the shot and it will go in!! Of course staying on the vertical axis........:smile:
 
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