DELETED POST?!?! Mike Janis & Viking Cue tour????

[cueman]

Teacherman, I remember when you first started posting on AZ you made your disdain for B-players known. Then shortly after you let your disdain for tournament players be known. I can understand why you would not want to hold a tournament since it would fill your room up with people you can't stand. It would create your own personal weekend in hell. So don't hold tournaments yourself. But please don't try to ruin Mike's reputation as those of us whom you disdain to have in your room really do like having Viking events to play in elsewhere.

 

[Teacherman]

As far as I am concerned it blows away any arguement against a tournament.

More pollyana. The numbers don't add up. Again, the RO gets to put up the money and do all the hard labor (selling). Everything up front and then paddle like a duck to get even. Tell me why I should do this for a group of people I won't see until I put up the money again. You could make a case for my existing customer base. But, not for the tour players.

You make money in this world by your labor or with your money. Except in pool. Many think they can schmooze their way through and get someone else to do everything for them and put up the money and take the risk under the disquise of "giving back".

I want to see the TD give something back. And, for sure, I'd love to see the player give something back.

 

[Teacherman]

...But please don't try to ruin Mike's reputation as those of us whom you disdain to have in your room really do like having Viking events to play in elsewhere.

Who is ruining a reputation? Have I said anything that isn't true? I apologize if I have. It's not my intent to ruin anyone with untruths.

On the other hand..........if the truth hurts????????????

The long and the short of it is there is a better way. It is spelled out by me. I would hold one of these tournaments as often as the market would bear under a different format. The one mentioned earlier and again a few posts above this.

But, some are not interested in a fair distribution of money.

One room has one of these events regularly. I don't know their status but I think I'm busier than them. I don't think they lose as much by kicking out the Saturday night business to hold the tournament. (The tournament that comes to St L most often does not cut the tournament off in the early evening) A few other rooms have tried them but stopped. They hold their own 32 man one pocket and nineball tments and add around $500, I think. But them stopping the regional tours events is telling.

 

[watchez]

He would not have the cojones to say that type of stuff to someone's face.

I am glad I know the name of his place so I can make sure I never go there.

Good cause you aren't invited.

Secondly, Chesterfield Billiards to hold a Viking Tour? I think their owner reads this board from time to time. Hey lady, care to respond on the chances of this happening?

 

[watchez]

This guy has no interest in anyone doing business in his place but him.
Period.
That is why he only has an in-house league and his tournaments were poorly put on by himself.

Ok, this is the second dumbest post in this thread. You are astonished that a business owner that pays rent, insurance, takes all the risk in opening a business doesn't want someone else coming in and making more in a weekend then himself??? Lets see, if the Viking Tour came to a new area where Teacherman is how many new players could be signed up for this $20 Tour Card fee (Bazooka, I think you will need help with the math so 30 new players x $20 = $600), then Janis gets $1000 to run the tournament, and then gets 10% of the calcutta (say 64 players, avg $40 a player=roughly $2500. $2500 x 10%= $250). So lets add this up.....
Viking tour gains....$600 Tour cards
$1000 Tournament director fee
$250 Calcultta
Equals $1850
this assuming that Mike Janis does not taking anything from THE PLAYERS.

Teacherman costs.....$1000 added
$1000 tournament director fee
Equals -$2000
plus $500 (this is a reach) in added liquor/food sales profit for weekend
Equals -$1500

Does this make sense to a business owner?

Okay, now lets take a close look at just one of the former Viking Cue 9 Ball Tour Stops. (Bazooka Joe, you read this real slow so you understand).

I am getting these results from the azbilliards site in reference to the January 22-23, 2005 event @Murphy's Brass Rail Billiards, Athens GA. Let me also note, and I am not misquoting as Mike Janis seems to state everytime he reads something he doesn't like, that a Viking Event averages 64 players and the entry fee is $35. I don't know how many players showed up for this Murphy's Brass Rail event but one would have to think that in the middle of January, prime pool season, along with the pull of the mighty Viking Tour there was no problem in getting 64 entries. That being said......64 entries x $35 = $2240 . Now lets add up the payouts for this event ($1050 for first)...I won't list them all you can go to this link http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showtourney2005.cfm?eventnum=28 if you care to do it yourself. The total payout totals $2975. Soooo $2240 in entry fees PLUS $1000 added money = $3240 . $3240 - $2975 in real payout = $265 taken out of the prize fund. Remember, I am using this based on 64 players. They might have and probably did have more players which means even MORE MONEY was taken out. If they didn't have 64 players, then maybe someone @Viking 9 ball tour can say why the tournament failed to draw players. In conclusion, Viking Tournament director made ($1000 room fee + $265 Minus Money + $250 Calcutta (also known as player auction) + $200 Tour Cards )= minimum of $1715 . Can anyone tell me a sporting event where the promoter makes more than the winner ($1050 @Murphys)? When a boxer gets $20 million to fight, does Don King make $30 million? This is just ONE THING that is wrong with pool.
You know what, at the next event when they take a picture of the winner holding his money....the tournament director should at least be fanning his money for the camera too.

 

[Hal]

Hmm, no offense and I dont mean to single you out as I have seen lots of people on this board (only) using that exact quote but to "resemble" something is to have a likeness towards it. When you say you "resemble" that remark you are in effect saying "Hey, I am similar to that remark!!!" which I am sure is not really what you are trying to say. The proper saying is "Hey, I resent that remark!!!" which is much more the point you are really trying to achieve.

Main Entry: re·sem·ble
Pronunciation: ri-'zem-b&l
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re·sem·bled; re·sem·bling /-b(&-)li[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French resembler, ressembler, from Old French, from re- + sembler to be like, seem, from Latin similare to copy, from similis like -- more at SAME
1 : to be like or similar to
2 archaic : to represent as like

Main Entry: re·sent
Pronunciation: ri-'zent
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: French ressentir to be emotionally sensible of, from Old French, from re- + sentir to feel, from Latin sentire -- more at SENSE
: to feel or express annoyance or ill will at


Not trying to be a stick in the mud but after seeing quite afew people using "I resemble that remark" on this board it is time to say something.

You obviously have no sense of humor whatsoever."I resembe that remark" is a joke...

 

[Teacherman]

You go watchez.

I can't wait to see what you misquoted. It might be awhile. Now that he has 6 companies.

 

[Teacherman]

FranknCali

You mentioned your belief that I could get a $10 check from each of 64 players. I'll do you one better. Assume each brought a guest. Assume I have 128 people in the room. Assume each spent $10. That comes to $1280. Cost of product would take away $400. Leaves $880. Extra help will take $100. Leaves $780. Rent alone is $300 per day (was $500 before I down sized) so $600 for 2 days. Leaves $280. Utilities run $100/day in the summer. Now I'm at $80. Take out sales tax of 7.5% and you reduce it by another $90. -$10 profit so far. There is still insurance and other costs. And don't forget I added $1000. So, I'm worse than -$1010 at the moment.

Oh, but the product.......f the product. I work hard enough as it is. I don't need something else to do just so some people I don't know can play pool.

Now, here's the kicker..............................................what happens when only 32 people show up?

I know you would like me to say my overhead will be there with or without the tournament but if that is true, which events can I count on helping with the overhead and which not? Shouldn't they all contribute?

So what are the numbers without the overhead. $1280 - cost of product ($400) - labor ($100) - sales tax ($90) - $1000 added money = $-690.

I've got -$690 to apply toward the overhead.

Now compare that to the $300 I might do on a normal Sat and Sun afternoon in June. Take out the cost of product leaves $250. (cost is less because I'll have more pool time sales as compared to food and alcohol) Subtract sales tax leaves $225. Take out the labor leaves $125.00.

I've got $125 to apply to the overhead

 

[MikeJanis]

Ok, this is the second dumbest post in this thread. You are astonished that a business owner that pays rent, insurance, takes all the risk in opening a business doesn't want someone else coming in and making more in a weekend then himself??? Lets see, if the Viking Tour came to a new area where Teacherman is how many new players could be signed up for this $20 Tour Card fee (Bazooka, I think you will need help with the math so 30 new players x $20 = $600), then Janis gets $1000 to run the tournament, and then gets 10% of the calcutta (say 64 players, avg $40 a player=roughly $2500. $2500 x 10%= $250). So lets add this up.....
Viking tour gains....$600 Tour cards
$1000 Tournament director fee
$250 Calcultta
Equals $1850
this assuming that Mike Janis does not taking anything from THE PLAYERS.

Teacherman costs.....$1000 added
$1000 tournament director fee
Equals -$2000
plus $500 (this is a reach) in added liquor/food sales profit for weekend
Equals -$1500

Does this make sense to a business owner?

Okay, now lets take a close look at just one of the former Viking Cue 9 Ball Tour Stops. (Bazooka Joe, you read this real slow so you understand).

I am getting these results from the azbilliards site in reference to the January 22-23, 2005 event @Murphy's Brass Rail Billiards, Athens GA. Let me also note, and I am not misquoting as Mike Janis seems to state everytime he reads something he doesn't like, that a Viking Event averages 64 players and the entry fee is $35. I don't know how many players showed up for this Murphy's Brass Rail event but one would have to think that in the middle of January, prime pool season, along with the pull of the mighty Viking Tour there was no problem in getting 64 entries. That being said......64 entries x $35 = $2240 . Now lets add up the payouts for this event ($1050 for first)...I won't list them all you can go to this link http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showtourney2005.cfm?eventnum=28 if you care to do it yourself. The total payout totals $2975. Soooo $2240 in entry fees PLUS $1000 added money = $3240 . $3240 - $2975 in real payout = $265 taken out of the prize fund. Remember, I am using this based on 64 players. They might have and probably did have more players which means even MORE MONEY was taken out. If they didn't have 64 players, then maybe someone @Viking 9 ball tour can say why the tournament failed to draw players. In conclusion, Viking Tournament director made ($1000 room fee + $265 Minus Money + $250 Calcutta (also known as player auction) + $200 Tour Cards )= minimum of $1715 . Can anyone tell me a sporting event where the promoter makes more than the winner ($1050 @Murphys)? When a boxer gets $20 million to fight, does Don King make $30 million? This is just ONE THING that is wrong with pool.
You know what, at the next event when they take a picture of the winner holding his money....the tournament director should at least be fanning his money for the camera too.

Watchez, did you ever hear that when you assume you make an ASS out of you an ME. Please stop doing that.

1st of all, how do you assume that the room owner takes all the risk and the a td or promoter doesn't. Do you actually think that I or other promoters don't have money invested before we ever get to an event. The Viking Tours budget alone just for stamps to promote our events, sponsors and host locations is $22,000 a year. There's also printing, labels and labor. That's about an average $400 per tournament just to promote the event before I walk in the door. Then there's the travel expenses. Tour truck to haul all the products in, gas, maintenance, insurance. 800#, cell phone, computer, phone lines, travel to trade shows and on and on and on.

In fact it almost makes me sick to see how little money I actually make when I see the net at the end of each year. Especially after I invest soo much time and effort in the Viking Tour.

Basically put, your assumptions about how much money is made by td's or promoters aren't even close to reality.

Oh, and the Murphy's event had 46 players in it with 4 free entry fees given to Women and Jr players. The auction paid a total of $920. And I sure as hell don't charge them $1,000 as my fee to run a $1,000 added tournament.

Mj

 

[Teacherman]

...Oh, and the Murphy's event had 46 players in it...

That's real encouraging.

And, not a lot of assuming going on. He had a conversation with you over the phone in an attempt to talk me into it a few months ago.

He came to me first and said "if I can do this, this and this can we have an event"? I said yes.

He talked to you and came back and say it's impossible. What did you tell him?

I remember him telling me about the added money, the td fee, etc etc.

 

[MikeJanis]

FranknCali

You mentioned your belief that I could get a $10 check from each of 64 players. I'll do you one better. Assume each brought a guest. Assume I have 128 people in the room. Assume each spent $10. That comes to $1280. Cost of product would take away $400. Leaves $880. Extra help will take $100. Leaves $780. Rent alone is $300 per day (was $500 before I down sized) so $600 for 2 days. Leaves $280. Utilities run $100/day in the summer. Now I'm at $80. Take out sales tax of 7.5% and you reduce it by another $90. -$10 profit so far. There is still insurance and other costs. And don't forget I added $1000. So, I'm worse than -$1010 at the moment.

Oh, but the product.......f the product. I work hard enough as it is. I don't need something else to do just so some people I don't know can play pool.

Now, here's the kicker..............................................what happens when only 32 people show up?

I know you would like me to say my overhead will be there with or without the tournament but if that is true, which events can I count on helping with the overhead and which not? Shouldn't they all contribute?

So what are the numbers without the overhead. $1280 - cost of product ($400) - labor ($100) - sales tax ($90) - $1000 added money = $-690.

I've got -$690 to apply toward the overhead.

Now compare that to the $300 I might do on a normal Sat and Sun afternoon in June. Take out the cost of product leaves $250. (cost is less because I'll have more pool time sales as compared to food and alcohol) Subtract sales tax leaves $225. Take out the labor leaves $125.00.

I've got $125 to apply to the overhead

Teacherman, from what I understand about your overhead: 35% liquor cost and the 10% of the gross sales to the landlord it truly perplexes me why you would want to stay in Biz. If that 10% gross to the landlord,which is something like a mall contract is true, you are getting hijacked. Also, if you're liquor costs are around 35% then you are absolutely, definately getting held up by your employees.

One of my other companies is a company that keeps books for other small companies. We have many bars and restaurants that are clients and I know for a fact that when the liquor cost gets over a certain percentage that they are getting robbed by their employees.



Mj

 

[MikeJanis]

That's real encouraging.

Actually, the 46 player field is pretty good for Murphy's.

Mj

 

[Teacherman]

Teacherman, from what I understand about your overhead: 35% liquor cost and the 10% of the gross sales to the landlord it truly perplexes me why you would want to stay in Biz. If that 10% gross to the landlord,which is something like a mall contract is true, you are getting hijacked. Also, if you're liquor costs are around 35% then you are absolutely, definately getting held up by your employees.

One of my other companies is a company that keeps books for other small companies. We have many bars and restaurants that are clients and I know for a fact that when the liquor cost gets over a certain percentage that they are getting robbed by their employees.



Mj

You better check your sources. And, better go back to business school.

The 35% cost I talk about is food and liquor combined.

And, food and liquor cost is tied to price. You make a lot of assumptions about my employees and management without knowing our prices.

Doesn't surprise me though.

Any comments on my tour recommendation?

 

[MikeJanis]

You better check your sources. And, better go back to business school.

The 35% cost I talk about is food and liquor combined.

And, food and liquor cost is tied to price. You make a lot of assumptions about my employees and management without knowing our prices.

Doesn't surprise me though.

Any comments on my tour recommendation?

If your food and liquor costs are really only 35% combined then you seem to be robbing your customers instead.


Mj

 

[MikeJanis]

You better check your sources. And, better go back to business school.

The 35% cost I talk about is food and liquor combined.

And, food and liquor cost is tied to price. You make a lot of assumptions about my employees and management without knowing our prices.

Doesn't surprise me though.

Any comments on my tour recommendation?

And, how many of your stops have poker machines?

My assumptions came from your employees. I'm not sure if it was current or former or a combination of both.

As far as poker machines go I think it's ony 3 or 4 locations.

Mj

 

[Teacherman]

If your food and liquor costs are really only 35% combined then you seem to be robbing your customers instead.


Mj

I suggest you stick with something you know something about.

A food cost of 40-50% combined with a liquor cost of 20-25% can very easily average out to 35% or that vicinity and be completely fair to the customer. Besides, price dictates everything.

What if I discount food today to make money on alcohol and pool.

What if I discount alcohol tomorrow to make money on food and pool.

What if I discount pool today to profit on the other two.

What if I have a flat rate night..........say Ladies Night........they pay a flat $5.00 and drink whatever they want. But, the men pay full price. What will happen to the liquor cost on that day.

Liquor cost and food cost are guidelines only. And from one place to the next the guidelines are different. I would love to have a 50% liquor cost if I could do $10,000 in sales per night.

The bottom line is the bank doesn't let me deposit my food or liquor percentage. But they do like the money I deposit.

And it is very possible for one guy to operate at your "book" numbers and make way less money than another guy who's costs are way higher.

Go to school.

 

[Teacherman]

Actually, I guess I just schooled you..............................again.

Another no comment on my tour recommendation.

I have a feeling I know why.

 

[MikeJanis]

Another no comment on my tour recommendation.

I have a feeling I know why.

Teacherman, your tour failed horribly and you don't like pool players.

Why would I want any tour recommendations from you ?

But on the other hand, if you have any constructive comments I would love to hear them.

Mj

 

[MikeJanis]

Who is ruining a reputation? Have I said anything that isn't true? I apologize if I have. It's not my intent to ruin anyone with untruths.

On the other hand..........if the truth hurts????????????

The long and the short of it is there is a better way. It is spelled out by me. I would hold one of these tournaments as often as the market would bear under a different format. The one mentioned earlier and again a few posts above this.

But, some are not interested in a fair distribution of money.

Another issue that needs to be discussed and I would like Mike to be honest with me. How many of his tour stops have poker machines? Because in St. Louis, the only rooms that do well with these types of tournaments have them. One other room has one of these events regularly. I don't know their status but I think I'm busier than them. I don't think they lose as much by kicking out the Saturday night business to hold the tournament. (The tournament that comes to St L most often does not cut the tournament off in the early evening) A few other rooms have tried them but stopped. They hold their own 32 man one pocket and nineball tments and add around $500, I think. But them stopping the regional tours events is telling.

I must have missed this one earlier..

TM, I bow to your skills of misdirection. I have never in my life met someone as good at it as you.

Regarding the Poker Machines.... I think and am pretty sure only 3-5 have them. Most of our locations don't. The locations that don't are some of our most repeat locations. So there is absolutely ZERO credibility to your statement of " the only rooms that do well with these types of tournaments have them" .

Regarding our regular events in you area. In the 14 years that I have held tournaments we have had only 1 event anywher near the St. Louis area but I would like to do more and I will. Sharky's just agreed to another event yesterday.

Regarding your statement. "I don't think they lose as much by kicking out the Saturday night business to hold the tournament" Most venues we go into have set time parameters that the events operates in and because of this, nobody ever has to kick out their regular business. A room owner can choose to if they want to but the Viking Tour does not recemmend it to anyone. Admittedly, I do get a lot of heat from the players because of this.

You also speak of other events that come to St. Louis. Well simply put, I have nothing to do with them. In fact, some of the other tours that did operate in the St. Louis area and other parts of MO, OK, TX, NE and area states have screwed the room owners soo bad that it amazes me that anyone can get anything off the ground in those areas. I understand were your bitter feelings come from but please don't take it out on me and the Viking Tour any longer.


Mj

 

[frankncali]

Thanks for your response Teacherman.
I think the 10 per check is a minumum and it woudl easily be surpassed.
The second day was not included in the numbers.

I think its basically a difference of views. We as players and members of this board are looking for ways to make it easier for rooms to have events.
I believe your statements about cost concerns but I dont think you are interested in having an event. I still view it as a promotion and a
"giveback" to pool and the locals. Maybe thats just naive. Right now I just take what you pool room owners are saying and file it away. One day I am going to be the owner and hopefully I can avoid some pitfalls and mistakes.
As you say... pool is a tough gig and I think you know this with your years
in the business.

The 35% for food and drink is not too bad but if soda and bottled water are figured in its a bit high I think. I have seen your prices and they are good.

MJ-- Its not hard to have 35% in food and liquor. Teachers prices on food are very reasonable. Food is there to make a little but basically get players
in earlier and keep them longer. After labor if you are making money then great. Some rooms do alot more food sales then others and some do not have a dedicated cook at all times. These are all varibles that are tough to figure. Liquor %s can vary easily from whose pouring to how much
drinks are to start with. Some places serve 1oz drinks and others 1.25oz drinks.
I would think it would be closer to 30%. Also varys on the quanity differences when comparing draft to bottle sales. More bottles then the higher percentages. A bar I frequented here had one bartender that got great ratios from the draft beer while another really stunk it up and rarely
got even decent yields.

Teach
I dont see the companies getting away by giving out the money instead of product.
I have never seen a comapny in a grocery store giving out cash to buy a sample instead of giving out a sample. A drug dealer comes out way better
by giving away the first hit or discounting it seriously. Many times they
force their junkie to make others "try" or "taste" the merchandise trying to
get them hooked. (this is what I have been told and have seen not by personaly expierences ).

A good friend of mine passed away to early this past year. He was a very well known owner and had two events each year. He helped me run my first one and told me alot of what he had came to learn in his years. He did not
have a mini-tour into his place but he said it was his choice. He would rather run it for free by himself and he always had people volunteering to help.
He did say that the mini tours were getting to where they offered more than
they used to. He had great events and I guarantee that he had about
a 30 check for the players over the weekend. That figure is probably low and I am not joking. People always came and he usually had 85-100 players.

Being from the south I wonder if theres differences in players spending habits.
I know I noticed major differences in gambling.

I wish there was a strong organization pushing pool but I dont feel like
the UPA is it. Maybe one day. IMO I dont think pool on a local and regional
level can get consistently stronger without a strong national scene.

BTW- One thing is for sure we might have to change you nickname to
Hobart. Your quite well at stirring and mixing.

frankncali