I had to look.
Kinda like a car wreck.
Good post DM.
Kinda like a car wreck.
Good post DM.
DELETED POST?!?! Mike Janis & Viking Cue tour????
- Thread starter watchez
- Start date
Teacherman said:
Another Teacherman personality trait to admire; always got to have the last word and leave off putting the other person down. How many ex-wives do you have?
Look Teach, if you truly believe that you are the only person that understands business around here, than I really gotta laugh at you, or pity you... Running a Poolroom and the ecomonics surrounding it is not rocket science (neither is rocket science for that matter
). You hafta be joking if you think that it is so unique and complex taht unless you actually do it, then you would be clueless. Now THAT'S funny.I'm sorry that you're not happy with hosting Regional tournaments. Life's full of choices and opportunities. I hope you make the best of yours.
Good luck and AMF.
Eric
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Mike Templeton said:
Thank you.
I didn't think you could produce anything having to do with drugs or addiction.
Now shut the f up.
TM,
By your own account, you have had to down size, people don’t spend with you and there is a lot of animosity being developed all they way along.
At what point do you take a look and wonder what else you could do to help your business rather than making enemies with words on a message board?
There are a few people who have said you are a better person than the one you display here….but I don’t understand why you insist on reinforcing the negative opinions that are being made about you and your establishment.
Ultimately, it sounds like self destructive behavior.
Is this really your intended goal?
By your own account, you have had to down size, people don’t spend with you and there is a lot of animosity being developed all they way along.
At what point do you take a look and wonder what else you could do to help your business rather than making enemies with words on a message board?
There are a few people who have said you are a better person than the one you display here….but I don’t understand why you insist on reinforcing the negative opinions that are being made about you and your establishment.
Ultimately, it sounds like self destructive behavior.
Is this really your intended goal?
You know what Mr. Wilson, just last month I had to kick out a group of people from my business because of what I feel is detrimental to my long term success. Probably cost me $1000/week.
I'm just doing the same thing here. Eliminating the phoney. Showing the pool "market" what their value is.
And BTW, the entire pool business is self destructive.
I'm just doing the same thing here. Eliminating the phoney. Showing the pool "market" what their value is.
And BTW, the entire pool business is self destructive.
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Teacherman. I am curious to know a few things. Do your "regular customers" know you post here often? If so, how do they feel about it? If not, do they know of your disdain for "good players"? Is it not the hopeful goal of a lot of your "regular customers" to become better at pool, possibly even become very good at it? And if this were to happen, wouldn't this put them in an awkward position with you? Just trying to understand a few things here. Thanks
dogginda9 said:
doggin..
You're making the mistake that all "pool players" make. Players that want to be good. They over estimate the value of the "pool player" to the modern day pool room.
If I have 1000 customers (purely an example) I would say less than 20 of them have interest in getting good as in, "I want to be the best I can be", get good enough for regional, state or pro events. And, it's hard to call them "my customers" because on any given night they are looking for a game, or something to help them get better. So, for the most part they travel from room to room when something is going on. If nothing is going on they hang out at my place. BTW, just last night I recommend a couple of the visit this board. Maybe they are lurking thinking "Oh my God, Teacher's got a live one".
I would say another 100 or so play league or local tournaments. Like to compete, wish they were better, but won't make the committment. For the most part, to my knowledge, based on their frequency, I would call them "my customers".
As far as the awkward position question, it would be my guess that the 20 players trying to be the best they can be know exactly where I stand. My feelings are known better by them than anyone in my room. And, it is not confrontational. They like me for me and my room for my room. Or they like my staff. I guess they like the fight in me. I was one of them at one time. They know the status of pool and pool business. They know there is little or no money in their type of player. But, since we all know this, we talk about the game, the tours, the leagues, and quite frankly they agree with my general attitude. Some are not as vocal. Some are more vocal.
As for the 100 league/local tournament type player, they probably don't know my attitude about the state of the game. I'm not as close to them. They have to grow some more skin before they are allowed in the club. Kind of like parents with their kids. We don't talk about the girl that got pregnant with our 10, 12, 14 year olds like we would with our 20 year olds. They have no perspective from which to base an intelligent discussion of the issues.
That leaves about 880 others who come, play for an hour or two, drink a beer, have a sandwich, watch a game, and leave. It is quite telling and simply amazing how those "hour or two customers" spend 4 or 5 times as much as the guy who spends the entire evening there.
As far as my internet personality versus my in house personality, they are different except for those occasions when the internet personality is necessary in house. Although I think my customers are smarter than most posters here.
Maybe they recognize good business judgement when they see it.
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Wow.
It sure would be nice if all our conversations could be as reasonable and courteous as as the last few statments have been.
Dave
It sure would be nice if all our conversations could be as reasonable and courteous as as the last few statments have been.
Dave
Mr. Wilson said:
But you haven't said the magic words yet.
What I find intersting is that while many are very quick to attack Teacherman's views and his methods for explaining his position, very few fail to realize that he is absolutely correct in all of his asessments, and here is why:
It comes down to what Mike is offering. As a room owner, I can't pay my bills with a Viking Cue that will sit in a display case from now until after next Christmas. That's where Teacherman is coming from. Respect his position or not, he is correct to say that he won't win until someone buys that stuff. Your job as a business person is to move your inventory.
The Viking Tour/NUTS is successful, but would eliminating the calcutta drive away business? Of course not. Not for the room owner. A large majority of the people that buy into the calcutta have NO INTENTION of spending money in my establishment anyway, but they are are there to earn a bigger monetary profit than I will see that weekend. In my opinion, this is why nobody (vendors, sponsors, room owners) aren't making money. The calcutta money does nothing for a room owner at all, except limiting thr prospective patron of his purchasing power. I have said all along that it is misdirected energy and misdirected money. Mike's system will work for some room owners but not for all, and he knows that.
One of the biggest problems that I have faced in speaking with people about this subject is the facts about the money. It is a myth that there is no money in pool. Its there, and those that see it, or those that have it won't talk about it. That frustrates people like myself that have seen tour after tour self destruct over the years. In the end it doesn't even come down to money, it comes down to power. Those that have the power take on their own private agendas and the rest of us pay the price for it, and in the case of the MPBT, they blamed the players for it. Until this is changed, we will continue to have tours trying to build empires instead of promoting our sport to the mainstream. Significant outiside industry sponsorship will not be a possibility if this is all we have to show them.
Agree or disagree with that, its the history of our game. Nobody takes us seriously because we don't take ourselves seriously. Many of the tour leaders won't listen to any suggestions because they are stubbornly intent on doing things their way - or their ears only pick up signals that are attached to dollar signs. I'm not pointing fingers at Mike Janis at all, but history shows that this is the case, we usually don't do anything about it except point and laugh when its too late to save it. If there is one thing I will say to Mike Janis, is that avoiding these types of public debates would serve your tour well. This is where the UPA made some major errors in the past. Instead of opening this up in a public forum, a simple press release would have sufficed and you could have avoided wasting all this time debating in 2 threads, one of which you deleted.
It comes down to what Mike is offering. As a room owner, I can't pay my bills with a Viking Cue that will sit in a display case from now until after next Christmas. That's where Teacherman is coming from. Respect his position or not, he is correct to say that he won't win until someone buys that stuff. Your job as a business person is to move your inventory.
The Viking Tour/NUTS is successful, but would eliminating the calcutta drive away business? Of course not. Not for the room owner. A large majority of the people that buy into the calcutta have NO INTENTION of spending money in my establishment anyway, but they are are there to earn a bigger monetary profit than I will see that weekend. In my opinion, this is why nobody (vendors, sponsors, room owners) aren't making money. The calcutta money does nothing for a room owner at all, except limiting thr prospective patron of his purchasing power. I have said all along that it is misdirected energy and misdirected money. Mike's system will work for some room owners but not for all, and he knows that.
One of the biggest problems that I have faced in speaking with people about this subject is the facts about the money. It is a myth that there is no money in pool. Its there, and those that see it, or those that have it won't talk about it. That frustrates people like myself that have seen tour after tour self destruct over the years. In the end it doesn't even come down to money, it comes down to power. Those that have the power take on their own private agendas and the rest of us pay the price for it, and in the case of the MPBT, they blamed the players for it. Until this is changed, we will continue to have tours trying to build empires instead of promoting our sport to the mainstream. Significant outiside industry sponsorship will not be a possibility if this is all we have to show them.
Agree or disagree with that, its the history of our game. Nobody takes us seriously because we don't take ourselves seriously. Many of the tour leaders won't listen to any suggestions because they are stubbornly intent on doing things their way - or their ears only pick up signals that are attached to dollar signs. I'm not pointing fingers at Mike Janis at all, but history shows that this is the case, we usually don't do anything about it except point and laugh when its too late to save it. If there is one thing I will say to Mike Janis, is that avoiding these types of public debates would serve your tour well. This is where the UPA made some major errors in the past. Instead of opening this up in a public forum, a simple press release would have sufficed and you could have avoided wasting all this time debating in 2 threads, one of which you deleted.
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What do you know? There is intelligent life in the group.
Ok ok I'm sorry.
I just can't go 10 minutes without throwing a jab.
But there are so many sitting ducks at this site...........oops. I'll stop........for a few minutes.
Seriously, some good discussion today. Good posts from Drivermaker and Blackjack. Good questions from Mr. Wilson and dogginda.....
Then there was zooka, eric and simpleton. The pilots......
Just had to one more time.
How many times do I have to ask? Mr Janis will you explain where the money goes in your tour. Not sponsor money, if any. But the money the room owner, players, and calcutta buyers put up.
And, does everyone pay the same thing.
A full and compete accounting please.
Ok ok I'm sorry.
I just can't go 10 minutes without throwing a jab.
But there are so many sitting ducks at this site...........oops. I'll stop........for a few minutes.
Seriously, some good discussion today. Good posts from Drivermaker and Blackjack. Good questions from Mr. Wilson and dogginda.....
Then there was zooka, eric and simpleton. The pilots......
Just had to one more time.
How many times do I have to ask? Mr Janis will you explain where the money goes in your tour. Not sponsor money, if any. But the money the room owner, players, and calcutta buyers put up.
And, does everyone pay the same thing.
A full and compete accounting please.
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Confused again
Your telling me my numbers don't add up? Read my post again, please. A lot of that money is recovered way before the tournament. Why do you contradict yourself, in one sentence you say the RO does all the hard labor and then you say you only make money by your labor. Which is it? Do you want to work or not. And explain what is hard labor, what exaclly do you have to do that is so difficult? Selling what? Product? I put it in the case and it sells itself. Selling the tourney? The sponsors advertise for months, all I do is maybe make up a flyer with an automatic online program, make copies and mail out. Really hard labor. Not see players again? These regional tournaments or tours are just that regional. My last tournament I saw about 35 locals play who are always coming back and about 24 regional players, not pro tour players that come who live within 30 to 150 miles. I see them again occasionally. The players that play are not what you would call normal "pro tour players". As for a TD, hell run a tournament yourself if you have to, it is not very hard, just time sitting around writing names on the tournament board that is self explanatory. Read hard work.
Teacherman said:
Your telling me my numbers don't add up? Read my post again, please. A lot of that money is recovered way before the tournament. Why do you contradict yourself, in one sentence you say the RO does all the hard labor and then you say you only make money by your labor. Which is it? Do you want to work or not. And explain what is hard labor, what exaclly do you have to do that is so difficult? Selling what? Product? I put it in the case and it sells itself. Selling the tourney? The sponsors advertise for months, all I do is maybe make up a flyer with an automatic online program, make copies and mail out. Really hard labor. Not see players again? These regional tournaments or tours are just that regional. My last tournament I saw about 35 locals play who are always coming back and about 24 regional players, not pro tour players that come who live within 30 to 150 miles. I see them again occasionally. The players that play are not what you would call normal "pro tour players". As for a TD, hell run a tournament yourself if you have to, it is not very hard, just time sitting around writing names on the tournament board that is self explanatory. Read hard work.
Teacherman said:What do you know? There is intelligent life in the group.
Ok ok I'm sorry.
I just can't go 10 minutes without throwing a jab.
But there are so many sitting ducks at this site...........oops. I'll stop........for a few minutes.
Seriously, some good discussion today. Good posts from Drivermaker and Blackjack. Good questions from Mr. Wilson and dogginda.....
Then there was zooka, eric and simpleton. The pilots......
Just had to one more time.
How many times do I have to ask? Mr Janis will you explain where the money goes in your tour. Not sponsor money, if any. But the money the room owner, players, and calcutta buyers put up.
And, does everyone pay the same thing.
A full and compete accounting please.
Heyyyyyyyyyyy....don't I get any credit???? Teacherman, you wouldn't even be @this site if it wasn't for me----let alone the fact that I reinstated this post after Mike Janis of Viking Cue Tour deleted it.
watchez said:
Watchez for president. Watchez for president. Here ye Here ye......Watchez for president.
Absolutely true. Thank god for watchez. Without his referral where would we all be right now.
(I think we've worn them out............................we've outlasted them.................we got the last word.........................WE WIN. The Cardinals win. The Cardinals win the pennant. (notice I said pennant)
Ooooops. Just noticed an attack. Be right back nifty. Game's not over.
Denkinger missed the call. Herzog is going crazy. Joaquin is breaking the urinals................
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Q For Teacherman
Okay, I understand your points about getting retail goods in exchange for putting up money for the pize fund.
And I also see where Mike offers these retail packages and there are some room owners out there that will accept them.
So here's my question to you: If someone were to approach you, the room owner, for a tounament, what would reasonably expect and eventually accept to do it? Or are you just totally off doing a regular tournament?
Now let me ask you this, if you were a Tournament Director for an established tour, what would bring to a room owner to get him/her to put on an event for your tour?
Barbara
Teacherman said:Watchez for president. Watchez for president. Here ye Here ye......Watchez for president.
Absolutely true. Thank god for watchez. Without his referral where would we all be right now.
(I think we've worn them out............................we've outlasted them.................we got the last word.........................WE WIN. The Cardinals win. The Cardinals win the pennant. (notice I said pennant)
Ooooops. Just noticed an attack. Be right back nifty. Game's not over.
Denkinger missed the call. Herzog is going crazy. Joaquin is breaking the urinals................
Okay, I understand your points about getting retail goods in exchange for putting up money for the pize fund.
And I also see where Mike offers these retail packages and there are some room owners out there that will accept them.
So here's my question to you: If someone were to approach you, the room owner, for a tounament, what would reasonably expect and eventually accept to do it? Or are you just totally off doing a regular tournament?
Now let me ask you this, if you were a Tournament Director for an established tour, what would bring to a room owner to get him/her to put on an event for your tour?
Barbara
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nfty9er said:
Are you trying to join zooka, eric and templeton in Club Simpleton?
Oh My God!!!!! I don't even need the closer for this one. He's asking for the soft tossing lefty. Doesn't need the gas yet.
First, I said you make money off your labor or your money. Why, if I'm the one putting up the money do I also have to put in the labor? Go to the bank and ask for a loan to open a business. The bank may be interested because they make money off their money. If they like your proposal they loan you money from which they make more money. YOU, will make money off your labor, until such time as you have money to make money off your money. Simpleton......did you get that?
In the Viking tour scenario, the RO is putting up the money. Why not the TD put in the labor.
You ask "What labor?" and then follow up with my favorite. "Put it in the case and let it sell itself". ROFLMAO is my first thought. My second thought is that Viking Cue. I can see it there. In my case. In June.......July.......August......September......October......I think you get the point. And, then there are those tip tools, eight ball key chains, t shirts, lesson videos (by the way, I still have 25 Mike Massey trick shot videos from his performance at Teachers in 1977; great show by the way; one spectator got to pay $1500 to see it; all the others got in free; get my drift?).........everything is still there in June.....July.....August.....Sept......etc etc etc.
Remember, of the players that come to these tournaments that buy this kind of stuff................they already have it. And, of the rest of my customers...............they don't want it. Guess who gets to keep it. Or give them away as tournament booby prizes...........ME........the sucker........that's right......If I go for this move I'm the largest sucker on earth. And, that is a large part of the regional tours' base. Suckers. Suckers hoping for the best (as was sold) but getting the worst.
Now, for your sarcasm about running a tournament board, and mailing the flyer etc etc, you've got 3 minutes to reload........I mean rethink........I mean proof think........like proof read only proof think...........................
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Horn went off......too late.
EXACTLY................why should the TD, who does a $6.00 and hour job..........putting stamps on flyers, going to the post office, advancing names on the tournament board.............make more than the RO and the players.
Mr. Janis......are you out there.......Have I asked for an accounting of your tournament money? Oh, I have......Can I ask again? Please. Full and complete accounting of the RO added money, the entry fees, and the calcutta money for any given tournament that you've held. Thank you.
And Thank You nifty.
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Barbara said:
Are we moving toward a solution?...............PROGRESS................Yes!!!!
Here's a great starting point. How about figuring out how the winner of the tournament, the RO and the TD can all make $1000. This also includes 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc prize money. If that is possible, and there is more, figure out how it can be distributed equitably among the RO and TD.
When, and only when, the RO is an equal partner and shares equal risk and gets equal profit will there be a successful tour. And, the first guy to come up with that will be booked completely full.
It's called building a business instead of fleecing the RO. It's called partnership in advancing our game instead of "I'm going to get mine" even if it means "at his expense".
I've offered a reasonable scenario in this thread. Mr. Janis won't even debate it. Do you know why?........................HINT....It's in the paragraph immediately preceding this one.
And, I want large cudos (very large) for asking for each of the three to make the same amount. Because........the RO should do better than the other considering the size of his investment compared to the theirs.
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Hey know it all
You refuse to re-read my post. What did it cost me for a tournament director. zero, zilch. I got 3500 in product. Yeh I agree it sits for awhile, sometimes a long while but it basically cost me zilch so who cares. Part of business is investment in future sales. You don't do that? So your whole confusing post and spin means nothing to me. So it appears not only am I unintelligent so are you. By the way, how many square ft. are your rooms. Seems like a lot of overhead for Mo. compared to California.
Teacherman said:
You refuse to re-read my post. What did it cost me for a tournament director. zero, zilch. I got 3500 in product. Yeh I agree it sits for awhile, sometimes a long while but it basically cost me zilch so who cares. Part of business is investment in future sales. You don't do that? So your whole confusing post and spin means nothing to me. So it appears not only am I unintelligent so are you. By the way, how many square ft. are your rooms. Seems like a lot of overhead for Mo. compared to California.
Club Simpleton has just called a special meeting. Reason unknown. Will get back to you.