Denny Searcy, Harold Worst, Cole Dickson etc

M

Mr441

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm greatly enjoying the recent posts by Grady, Freddy and Jay Helfert about the great players of the 60's and 70's, but I'm a little confused about how good all these players were in relation to each other.
For example: Take these players: Denny Searcy, Cole Dickson, Harold Worst, Greg Stevens, Ritchie Florence. In the recent posts they've all been said to be "unbeatable", "no one wanted any part of them" etc. but the thing is they couldn't all be the best. Did Worst fear Searcy? Would Cole pay Florence? You see what I mean? The same can be said of the earlier generation: Lassiter, Rags, Willis...did they fear each other?

Personally the best 9-ball I've ever seen played was by Buddy Hall in the 80's, I can't imagine anyone playing much better than he did then. I hear he was even better in the late 70's but I can't vouch for that.

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Mr441 said:
I'm greatly enjoying the recent posts by Grady, Freddy and Jay Helfert about the great players of the 60's and 70's, but I'm a little confused about how good all these players were in relation to each other.
For example: Take these players: Denny Searcy, Cole Dickson, Harold Worst, Greg Stevens, Ritchie Florence. In the recent posts they've all been said to be "unbeatable", "no one wanted any part of them" etc. but the thing is they couldn't all be the best. Did Worst fear Searcy? Would Cole pay Florence? You see what I mean? The same can be said of the earlier generation: Lassiter, Rags, Willis...did they fear each other?

Personally the best 9-ball I've ever seen played was by Buddy Hall in the 80's, I can't imagine anyone playing much better than he did then. I hear he was even better in the late 70's but I can't vouch for that.

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No they didn't fear each other. In fact, Denny played Cole and Richie several times. And Greg Stevens played Richie for sure and probably Cole too. Harold Worst never went looking for anyone. He had successful businesses in Grand Rapids. And no one really wanted to go looking for him. After he tore up a couple of the top players in Johnson City (Jimmy Moore, Shorty and Detroit Whitey), no one cared to challenge him. He beat all the great players from around the midwest like Babyface, Joey Spaeth, Johnny Edwards, Cornbread and Al Miller. He didn't just beat these guys either. The story always was he annihilated them (won 20 games, won 30 games etc.). And these were good players.

What happened most often is that after Cole played Richie (and lost twice that I know of) he just left him alone. And Richie and Denny went back and forth a couple of times, and just called it a draw. I heard Greg Stevens beat Richie in Houston and then I heard Richie got him back. Ronnie was with him, so he would know the truth. For the most part, the top players avoided each other. There were too many easier games to be had.

Same with Lassiter, Willis and Rags. Willis and Lassiter traveled together for years. After Don lost one time to Lassiter, he knew this was the guy he wanted to take on the road. No dummy. As far as Lassiter and Rags, the story was Lassiter was the better 9-Ball player and Rags could drill him in One Pocket (not Luther's best game). Another big draw.

Rags was held in the same high regard as Worst in later years. Great story about him by Tom Shaw in his Legends Of The Road series. John "Rags" Fitzpatrick was the best money player of his era. Probably he did play Lassiter once or twice and then they were through with each other.
 
jay helfert said:
No they didn't fear each other. In fact, Denny played Cole and Richie several times. And Greg Stevens played Richie for sure and probably Cole too. Harold Worst never went looking for anyone. He had successful businesses in Grand Rapids. And no one really wanted to go looking for him. After he tore up a couple of the top players in Johnson City (Jimmy Moore, Shorty and Detroit Whitey), no one cared to challenge him. He beat all the great players from around the midwest like Babyface, Joey Spaeth, Johnny Edwards, Cornbread and Al Miller. He didn't just beat these guys either. The story always was he annihilated them (won 20 games, won 30 games etc.). And these were good players.

What happened most often is that after Cole played Richie (and lost twice that I know of) he just left him alone. And Richie and Denny went back and forth a couple of times, and just called it a draw. I heard Greg Stevens beat Richie in Houston and then I heard Richie got him back. Ronnie was with him, so he would know the truth. For the most part, the top players avoided each other. There were too many easier games to be had.

Same with Lassiter, Willis and Rags. Willis and Lassiter traveled together for years. After Don lost one time to Lassiter, he knew this was the guy he wanted to take on the road. No dummy. As far as Lassiter and Rags, the story was Lassiter was the better 9-Ball player and Rags could drill him in One Pocket (not Luther's best game). Another big draw.

Rags was held in the same high regard as Worst in later years. Great story about him by Tom Shaw in his Legends Of The Road series. John "Rags" Fitzpatrick was the best money player of his era. Probably he did play Lassiter once or twice and then they were through with each other.
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Wow, thanks for the very detailed reply Jay, you should write a book about all this stuff.

How do you think these players from the 60's and 70's would've played against say Johnny Archer or Ralf Souquet? I don't mean in a 24 hour marathon match, but a race to 15 or 20 in 9-ball. I've heard everything from "it would be even" to "the old players would demolish the modern players" to "the modern players are slightly better".

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Mr441 said:
Wow, thanks for the very detailed reply Jay, you should write a book about all this stuff.

How do you think these players from the 60's and 70's would've played against say Johnny Archer or Ralf Souquet? I don't mean in a 24 hour marathon match, but a race to 15 or 20 in 9-ball. I've heard everything from "it would be even" to "the old players would demolish the modern players" to "the modern players are slightly better".

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I think they are equals. The great players of the 60's and 70's were just as good as the best players today.

You know when it gets down to tough match-ups between top players, many times it comes down to heart and desire. Who's got more heart and desire today than Johnny? Why do you think he is always a threat to win?

And let me tell you, people like Lassiter, Worst, Richie and Buddy had those same qualities. You had to beat them somehow, because they damn sure weren't going to give it to you.
 
You know whenever I hear about these gamblers that "no one could beat" in a particular game like 9-ball or one pocket I immediately think of how they'd play against Mosconi. A lot of people say that Mosconi didn't play anything but straight pool BUT if Mosconi were to match up with any of the top 9-ballers from the 50's how many people would actually bet against Mosconi? I don't think many would.

Bobby
 
Bobby said:
You know whenever I hear about these gamblers that "no one could beat" in a particular game like 9-ball or one pocket I immediately think of how they'd play against Mosconi. A lot of people say that Mosconi didn't play anything but straight pool BUT if Mosconi were to match up with any of the top 9-ballers from the 50's how many people would actually bet against Mosconi? I don't think many would.

Bobby
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CORRECT! he thought 9-Ball was a joke. See my post on the Ronnie Allen thread about Willie.
 
Jay

How do you think the players from yesteryear would play given the advancements in equipment technology.
Can you imagine some of these stone cold killers on Simonis with cues that are available today? Do you think they would adapt?

Thanks,
Mike
 
Mosconi is the top...

Maybe it's because I saw Willie Mosconi when I was young and impressionable...quite a few times...and on absolutely dreadful equipment and conditions much of the time...and I rarely saw him run less than a hundred balls in a match to 150...

Well imo if he were playing today...with the new cue technology...the lively balls...level tables and cloth like glass...

Willie would never miss...and look like a movie star doing it...
 
And by the way...

After Willie runs his 100+ balls to end the 150-pt match...and the crowd calls for more...Willie says 'Well I'll just run up to 150 (or 200) then get on with the show'...and then do it like a piece of cake...

Maybe there has never been a perfect pool player...but Willie Mosconi came the closest...
 
Bobby said:
You know whenever I hear about these gamblers that "no one could beat" in a particular game like 9-ball or one pocket I immediately think of how they'd play against Mosconi. A lot of people say that Mosconi didn't play anything but straight pool BUT if Mosconi were to match up with any of the top 9-ballers from the 50's how many people would actually bet against Mosconi? I don't think many would.

Bobby
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My Grandfather used to have an open invitation to play Willie 9ball. Willie was famous for berating good players, but him and my Grandfather had a respect for each other. They both realized they had diffrent goals, Mosconi's was one of reverance of the game and to be known as the greatest. My granfathers was to get the cash always.
 
NittiFan said:
Jay

How do you think the players from yesteryear would play given the advancements in equipment technology.
Can you imagine some of these stone cold killers on Simonis with cues that are available today? Do you think they would adapt?

Thanks,
Mike
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Absolutely, without question. In their day they learned to play on all kinds of equipment. Very rarely were any two poolrooms set up the same. Different tables, different lights, different everything was the norm.

I mean take a look at how well the filipino players have adapted to conditions over here, where the cues and tables are far superior to what they learned on.
 
huckster said:
My Grandfather used to have an open invitation to play Willie 9ball. Willie was famous for berating good players, but him and my Grandfather had a respect for each other. They both realized they had diffrent goals, Mosconi's was one of reverance of the game and to be known as the greatest. My granfathers was to get the cash always.
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Who was your grandfather? George Rood, Don Willis or Chuck Morgan?
They're the three best from Ohio that I know of.
 
huckster said:
Don Willis
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Are you serious? Don Willis the "Cincinatti Kid" was your grandfather?!! Wow, did he tell you any great stories about the old days?

.
 
> George Fels really needs to be here. In his Legends articles,he spoke about all of these guys,and I think he was around to actually witness some of it. It was said that back in those days Lassiter was generally considered the man,but his road partner the great Don Willis was the man in Lassiter's eyes,because the only time they really gambled,Willis busted him and quickly. On the other hand,Lassiter wasn't exactly thrilled about the idea of playing Harold Worst either,the only time he EVER saw Willis get beat Worst was the man that did it. Luther beat Harold in a tournament match in Johnston City,and Harold challenged Luther to play 200 a rack even 9-ball in front of the whole room,but neither showed up to play. According to George's article,Worst was said to be the most intimidating player on the planet,a 60's version of Earl,breaking the balls with authority and never slow-rolling anything,and would shoot the game ball so hard at times he supposedly broke rail bolts and pocket brackets. His demeanor was ice-cold too,never said a word or even changed facial expressions regardless of the score or situation. The story was told that he scared so many players he had 2 guys die of a heart attack playing him one-pocket for 100 a game in the same week. He also teamed up with Weenie Beanie and had the book wide open giving 10-1 odds on him running 100 balls with ball in hand,ghost style. They busted everyone year after year at Johnston City and the Stardust. Willis was apparently one hell of a man as well as a player,he supported a wife and several kids who all had their education paid for 100% from him running out on people,and practically no one had a bad thing to say about him. Tommy D.
 
Don Willis

A story no one talks about, maybe because it occurred even before my time, was when Don Willis BEAT Willie Mosconi playing Nineball! I dont remember the details, but it was common knowledge 50 yrs ago. What made it so important was Willis was the only known winner over Mosconi for the few money matches that he played. Willie beat Fats (1pkt), Nicky Vachianno (gave him the 5ball on 5x10 in Phila), Oakland Don Decoy (1 pkt), etc. And yes, Mosconi was really a creep, he would sometimes hurl his cue like javelin the few times he would miss a ball in an exhibition.
the Beard
 
Willie was a great, great player, but had a very bad personality.
When he was shooting, if anyone did not give him full reverence, Willie let him have it.
Let someone light a cigarette or cough while Willie was shooting and he would glare at them until he humiliated them.
And if he missed a ball, it was the bad table or the lights or the balls. Anything but him.

Hey Freddie, you know Fats busted Willie at his father's poolroom in Philly.
He came up with this unique trap game, Bank Every Other Ball, and Willie went for it. That's why he was Triple Smart Fats. And also why Willie hated him, for outsmarting him.
 
freddy the beard said:
A story no one talks about, maybe because it occurred even before my time, was when Don Willis BEAT Willie Mosconi playing Nineball! I dont remember the details, but it was common knowledge 50 yrs ago. What made it so important was Willis was the only known winner over Mosconi for the few money matches that he played. Willie beat Fats (1pkt), Nicky Vachianno (gave him the 5ball on 5x10 in Phila), Oakland Don Decoy (1 pkt), etc. And yes, Mosconi was really a creep, he would sometimes hurl his cue like javelin the few times he would miss a ball in an exhibition.
the Beard
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Freddy,
According to my Grandfather it happended when my Grandfather got out of the military. at the time he was playing the best pool of his life (his military career consisted of him playing pool, ping pong, and horseshoes.) They played for $50 a game (a very large sum in those days) In a very private setting in Philly only a dozen or so people witnessed it. Don broke Willie in about 5 hours. People were falling over each other to get in rail bets or back Willie. My Grandfather had a short roll but a well known road player of the time (I forget his name) loaned Don the money to cover the rail bets in return for a few of the bets. My Grandfather bought a car from the winnings from his match-up with Willie.
 
huckster said:
Freddy,
According to my Grandfather it happended when my Grandfather got out of the military. at the time he was playing the best pool of his life (his military career consisted of him playing pool, ping pong, and horseshoes.) They played for $50 a game (a very large sum in those days) In a very private setting in Philly only a dozen or so people witnessed it. Don broke Willie in about 5 hours. People were falling over each other to get in rail bets or back Willie. My Grandfather had a short roll but a well known road player of the time (I forget his name) loaned Don the money to cover the rail bets in return for a few of the bets. My Grandfather bought a car from the winnings from his match-up with Willie.
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Huckster, If you havn't already, GET THESE STORIES DOWN ON PAPER!~ please....then write a book...:D

Gerry
 
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