No it wasn't random in this tourney, Tony Robles was putting the balls were he wanted against Corey in their match. Corey asked the TD if they could do that & the answer was yes so Corey started doing it himself. no rules were broken
Deuel's 10 ball break at Valley Forge
- Thread starter spoons
- Start date
No it wasn't random in this tourney, Tony Robles was putting the balls were he wanted against Corey in their match. Corey asked the TD if they could do that & the answer was yes so Corey started doing it himself. no rules were broken
Very cool, Wei. Thanks.
I was playing around with this a little last night on a table that made it nearly impossible to get a tight rack. Even so, I'm fairly certain I had the path of the 4 and 5 balls incorrect in that original diagram. It's not quite as pretty, but for what it's worth, here's what I believe to be a little more accurate diagram of how the balls spread.
I was playing around with this a little last night on a table that made it nearly impossible to get a tight rack. Even so, I'm fairly certain I had the path of the 4 and 5 balls incorrect in that original diagram. It's not quite as pretty, but for what it's worth, here's what I believe to be a little more accurate diagram of how the balls spread.
Rep for figuring all this out and explaining it.
I like playing those 2nd-row balls into the side but what kills me is I need to really draw the ball to make it happen it seems like... and when I do that I can't make it just squat in the middle of the table. It always feels like I end up either letting whitey go or making a ball, but I can't have both.
If I angle a lot and take some speed off I get close with the 1 in the side as well.
I like playing those 2nd-row balls into the side but what kills me is I need to really draw the ball to make it happen it seems like... and when I do that I can't make it just squat in the middle of the table. It always feels like I end up either letting whitey go or making a ball, but I can't have both.
If I angle a lot and take some speed off I get close with the 1 in the side as well.
1 in the side: different shot in 10 Ball?
Is the 1 in the side a different shot with a 10-Ball rack than with a 9-Ball rack?
pj
chgo
Is the 1 in the side a different shot with a 10-Ball rack than with a 9-Ball rack?
pj
chgo
I've been wondering this too.
I also wonder why the second row of balls (the 2 & 3 in your diagram) are considered makeable in the side pockets with a 10-Ball rack - I've never heard of that being a viable shot with a 9-Ball rack.
pj
chgo
Both the 2 and 9 will carom higher, probably due to the presence of the 7, which wouldn't be there in a 9-ball rack.
I dunno why but I've watched all Shane's 10 ball videos by TAR and it appears that 2nd ball to side pocket seems to happen a lot for guys breaking from the box.
It's something I wonder about too. I don't understand the exact physics but in the past, the way I used to think of it was something like this:
"If the balls are all truly frozen and just rebounding off each other's tangent lines, then it shouldn't matter what's going on 'behind' those first three rows, right?"
In other words, if you can make either the head ball or the 2nd row balls in the side, you should be able to whether you're shooting at 15 balls, 10 balls, 9 balls, or even 6 balls, yah?
But somehow it's not like that. I've heard it has to do with the weight of the balls behind the rest supporting them. And/or slight imperfections in even the tightest seemingly frozen rack. That weight somehow changes the dynamics of the way the upper balls play off the balls behind them. I've also heard that this supporting weight is the reason the CB hops backwards off the rack even when you keep it as level as possible and avoid letting it stay airborne on contact. I'm not sure why this should be so.
As far as I know, playing those balls works well in 8 and 10 ball (I know 8 from experience, and 10 ball from seeing videos of shane doing it over and over) but it doesn't work in 9. They always go too low below the side. Or maybe it's just that the wing ball is so much more reliable that nobody bothers experimenting with it?
I am pretty cursed on my break and am probably the wrong guy to test it, I can't even make the wing ball but 1 in 10 it seems like. But it'd be cool if someone else wants to test the 2nd row. Or to see if the 1 changes much.
If 1 in the side didn't care about what's going on behind all the other balls, 3 ball would be a cinch =P
"If the balls are all truly frozen and just rebounding off each other's tangent lines, then it shouldn't matter what's going on 'behind' those first three rows, right?"
In other words, if you can make either the head ball or the 2nd row balls in the side, you should be able to whether you're shooting at 15 balls, 10 balls, 9 balls, or even 6 balls, yah?
But somehow it's not like that. I've heard it has to do with the weight of the balls behind the rest supporting them. And/or slight imperfections in even the tightest seemingly frozen rack. That weight somehow changes the dynamics of the way the upper balls play off the balls behind them. I've also heard that this supporting weight is the reason the CB hops backwards off the rack even when you keep it as level as possible and avoid letting it stay airborne on contact. I'm not sure why this should be so.
As far as I know, playing those balls works well in 8 and 10 ball (I know 8 from experience, and 10 ball from seeing videos of shane doing it over and over) but it doesn't work in 9. They always go too low below the side. Or maybe it's just that the wing ball is so much more reliable that nobody bothers experimenting with it?
I am pretty cursed on my break and am probably the wrong guy to test it, I can't even make the wing ball but 1 in 10 it seems like. But it'd be cool if someone else wants to test the 2nd row. Or to see if the 1 changes much.
If 1 in the side didn't care about what's going on behind all the other balls, 3 ball would be a cinch =P
I believe the effect has a lot to do with the relative masses of the cue ball, and the pack of 3, 9,10 or 15 balls. In a gross simplification, I've always thought about it as similar to throwing a ball at a wall, or even the ground (Earth). The ball bounces back.
Exactly. My understanding is that making the second row of balls in its respective side pockets is easier to do the more balls there are in the rack. But, like you say, I wouldn't rely on the consistency of my break to test any of this.
All you had to do was watch Corey break. They RACE to the side pocket even with a medium hit.
JoeyA
i agree for the most part.
first, the "randon rack" rule is impossible to enforce, this is so hazy it should not even be a rule (if it is one). think about it this way, if a guy puts just the three ball in the same spot every rack, is that pattern racking? what if he puts the 3 in the same spot 50% of the time? what if he puts only the three and the 4 in the same spot every rack, is that a pattern? what if he switches the 3 and 4 every rack? this is totally subjective and could never be enforced; not only that, sometimes you need to put a certain ball in a certain position cus that's how they rack good (eg the 8 ball maybe the only ball that can freeze to all the other balls around it cus the other balls are too small, or big etc) . hopefully we are past that rule; truth is it will probably take us another 100 years, sadly.
second, if you do want to have a non-pattern rack tournament, either have refs, or set a racking order before the tournament, failure to follow the racking order after leaving the table could mean loss of game or something, you get the point.
point is, people need to get over this pattern racking thing, it is just something you have to live with unless you want to bring a lot of clearly subjective decisions about racking order into the game.
if you disagree with this, here's why you're wrong (technically): you have to make things equal among all the players and matches. to tell one guy at some point that he is pattern racking and not to tell another guy (perhaps because he is better at hiding it) is unfair. to make it fair youd have to have a computer program checking their rqacking patterns or something. the other thing is. what if a guy is racking "clean" the whole tournament, then puts his best pattern rack up their say whenever he goes hill-hill. i could go on and on, there is just no way to fairly and objectively assess and enforce this rule. if it was enforced i guarantee it would be enforced with bias amongst the field, which isn't fair.
Last edited:
Racking Balls Random or Not
The more I think about it the more I am prone toward racking the balls in ANY ORDER YOU CHOOSE, that is, except for the one ball and the ten ball.
I think this is appropriate, especially in rack your own, alternating break formats. Each player should have the right to put the balls where he thinks they will do him the most good. It could add an element of interest to the viewers watching the match and make for good discussion by commentators and audiences.
JoeyA
The more I think about it the more I am prone toward racking the balls in ANY ORDER YOU CHOOSE, that is, except for the one ball and the ten ball.
I think this is appropriate, especially in rack your own, alternating break formats. Each player should have the right to put the balls where he thinks they will do him the most good. It could add an element of interest to the viewers watching the match and make for good discussion by commentators and audiences.
JoeyA
Now that you've made me think about it this way, I think I agree. It's just about impossible to ensure random racking, and opponent-racking creates too many arguments, so maybe we should turn these bugs into a feature.
Good thinking, Joey.
pj
chgo
There are exceptions, of course, but I'm generally in favor of anything that rewards the player with the most knowledge. If you know where the balls are going, and like Corey, have put the time in to figure out how to use that to your advantage (within the rules), then I'm all for it.
What the last 3 guys said.
A lot of the rule changes in 9 ball were to somehow prevent long strings of runouts... like the 10,000 changes made to breaking rules to prevent guaranteed wing balls. It's like they don't want a player to put up 4, 5, and 6-packs.
Well, 10-ball supposedly fixes that (though as a fan I love to see a 6-pack). God knows dry breaks still happen in 10-ball no matter what tricks Corey Deuel comes up with. I think JS himself commented that breaking from the exact same spot would seemingly produce nothing on one rack and 3 balls the next time. So it's pretty clear the 10-ball rack can't really be exploited. Why begrudge a player "pattern racking" when he's just trying to come up with some way to string a few (nevermind 6) together? If he has the skill to pull it off, god bless him.
A lot of the rule changes in 9 ball were to somehow prevent long strings of runouts... like the 10,000 changes made to breaking rules to prevent guaranteed wing balls. It's like they don't want a player to put up 4, 5, and 6-packs.
Well, 10-ball supposedly fixes that (though as a fan I love to see a 6-pack). God knows dry breaks still happen in 10-ball no matter what tricks Corey Deuel comes up with. I think JS himself commented that breaking from the exact same spot would seemingly produce nothing on one rack and 3 balls the next time. So it's pretty clear the 10-ball rack can't really be exploited. Why begrudge a player "pattern racking" when he's just trying to come up with some way to string a few (nevermind 6) together? If he has the skill to pull it off, god bless him.
COREY DUE:'s 10 ball BREAK
This is the 10 ball ring game. Perfect example of the Corey Deuel Break as described earlier in this thread. Around 35:30 minute mark. Both the corner ball (9) and the second row ball (7?) in the side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA0CtBN0vZI&NR=1
Throughout the match Corey's break were like this but this one is the best example.
This is the 10 ball ring game. Perfect example of the Corey Deuel Break as described earlier in this thread. Around 35:30 minute mark. Both the corner ball (9) and the second row ball (7?) in the side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA0CtBN0vZI&NR=1
Throughout the match Corey's break were like this but this one is the best example.
So the question is, how to they make the ball in the second row?? What do you have to do to make it go near the side (harder, softer, more cut, less cut)?
I've been trying to figure this out for a while, sometimes the ball in the second row goes, but usually it is very difficult to even make a ball on the break in 10-ball, even if you really whack them.
I've been trying to figure this out for a while, sometimes the ball in the second row goes, but usually it is very difficult to even make a ball on the break in 10-ball, even if you really whack them.