Diamond Systems, How to Test a Table, Diamond Table Banking Short

[dr_dave]

So is it 1/3 across the diamond, through the diamond, other?

As shown in the diagram, the line for the 1/3-more-than-twice banks is measure across from the diamond position on each rail. For more info, see:

1/3-more-than-twice fast-speed banking system

Here's a pertinent illustration from the resource page:

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[bbb]

The diagrams are ready. I decided to keep it simple and include only the basic kick and bank tests. They are on a single page. Here it is:

Pool Table Kick and Bank Shot System Test Shots

Get to work,
Dave

dave i think you should include the corner5
its one of the ones i test a table on before i play (i play onepocket and its an important kick to be precise on)
jmho
icbw

 

[dr_dave]

The diagrams are ready. I decided to keep it simple and include only the basic kick and bank tests. They are on a single page. Here it is:

Pool Table Kick and Bank Shot System Test Shots

Get to work,
Dave

dave i think you should include the corner5
its one of the ones i test a table on before i play (i play onepocket and its an important kick to be precise on)
jmho
icbw

I thought about including Plus System and Corner-5 System kicks, but I think simpler is better here. People might not use the same speed and spin, so the comparisons would probably not be as useful.

Regards,
Dave

 

[iusedtoberich]

I did them on a GC4 super speed, GC4 diamond black (I think) cushions, and 7’ Diamond red. I’ll have to summarize later I’ve got a plane to catch in 5 hrs.

 

[MattPoland]

Dave,

Have you seen the Zero-X system?

It’s basically the 2:1 system but x10. So you visualize 40:20 instead of 4:2, 30:15 instead of 3:1.5, and 25:12.5 instead of 2.5:1.25. I know that’s apples to apples but some other tips come in play.

You mention aiming a smidge long on a Diamond table. Zero-X offers a different calibration you didn’t mention. They have you shoot a 40:20 (4:2). If it comes short, set it back up and add a smidge of inside spin. Repeat until you find the amount to make it go. Once you identify that amount of sidespin, that’s the baseline amount you apply to all kicks (20:10, 30:15, 46:23, etc.). In my experience a “on-system” table only needs a tip of top english. A Diamond (and most other short tables) also needs a 1/4” tip of sidespin. I know visualizing sidespin magnitude in “tips” isn’t empirical but use whatever your brain processes and calibrate.

Another piece of Zero-X advice is that once you get to 60:30 and wider kicks, they start to go long and you need to start hitting them a tad firmer (as long as you’re kicking long tail to long rail still).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[dr_dave]

I did them on a GC4 super speed, GC4 diamond black (I think) cushions, and 7’ Diamond red. I’ll have to summarize later I’ve got a plane to catch in 5 hrs.

Sounds good. And if you have convenient access to other Diamond table sizes and models, please consider testing those also.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Have you seen the Zero-X system?

Yes. Tor does a good job presenting some of the standard systems in a style many people seem to like.

It’s basically the 2:1 system but x10. So you visualize 40:20 instead of 4:2, 30:15 instead of 3:1.5, and 25:12.5 instead of 2.5:1.25.

I'm a purest and prefer counting actual diamonds (and fractions of diamonds), but I know many people don't like decimals or fractions. Actually, many people don't like numbers at all. I think the visual and mirror versions of the two-to-one system are best for most people (easier and just as accurate with no numbers or calculations required). I demonstrate some of them starting at the 1:15 point in my video and more info is available on the mirror kicking handout and the equal-distance mirror systems resource page.

You mention aiming a smidge long on a Diamond table. Zero-X offers a different calibration you didn’t mention. They have you shoot a 40:20 (4:2). If it comes short, set it back up and add a smidge of inside spin. Repeat until you find the amount to make it go. Once you identify that amount of sidespin, that’s the baseline amount you apply to all kicks (20:10, 30:15, 46:23, etc.). In my experience a “on-system” table only needs a tip of top english. A Diamond (and most other short tables) also needs a 1/4” tip of sidespin. I know visualizing sidespin magnitude in “tips” isn’t empirical but use whatever your brain processes and calibrate.
Another piece of Zero-X advice is that once you get to 60:30 and wider kicks, they start to go long and you need to start hitting them a tad firmer (as long as you’re kicking long tail to long rail still).

There are many ways to make adjustments to the systems, and it is helpful to know all of them because sometimes a shot calls for less speed, and it is easy to get the spin amount wrong (which is a killer with 1-rail kicks or banks).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I did them on a GC4 super speed, GC4 diamond black (I think) cushions, and 7’ Diamond red. I’ll have to summarize later I’ve got a plane to catch in 5 hrs.

Are you back from your trip yet? If so, please share your results.

Also, has anybody else tried out the procedure in the video or the two sets of shot in the handout on other Diamond tables with different labels and of different sizes? If so, please share what you found.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Jonas111]

I have two Diamond tables in my house. I have a 7’ pro am and a 9’ Professional.

7’ plays perfectly.

The 9’ I am having troubles with. I have spoke with the diamond rep that sold it to me numerous times. And also have spoke with Diamond. They think nothing is wrong with my table. It plays noticeably different then the 7’. Bank’s run long and ball gets eaten up in the rails. Like the rubber is high. Spin gets eaten up coming off the rail.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great table and I really enjoy playing on it but my rails are so dead compared to those tables at the US Open. Cutting a ball and running cue ball end to end doesn’t happen. You have to hit it so hard to make it work properly.

I will be trying some of these shots on my 9’ profesional blue label.

Also I have spoken with the local diamond rep and told him I want the cushions replaced. Diamond won’t warranty it so I told him I Would pay. I just want this table to play properly.

 

[AtLarge]

I have two Diamond tables in my house. I have a 7’ pro am and a 9’ Professional.

7’ plays perfectly.

The 9’ I am having troubles with. I have spoke with the diamond rep that sold it to me numerous times. And also have spoke with Diamond. They think nothing is wrong with my table. It plays noticeably different then the 7’. Bank’s run long and ball gets eaten up in the rails. Like the rubber is high. Spin gets eaten up coming off the rail.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great table and I really enjoy playing on it but my rails are so dead compared to those tables at the US Open. Cutting a ball and running cue ball end to end doesn’t happen. You have to hit it so hard to make it work properly.

I will be trying some of these shots on my 9’ profesional blue label.

Also I have spoken with the local diamond rep and told him I want the cushions replaced. Diamond won’t warranty it so I told him I Would pay. I just want this table to play properly.

It might be worth checking the tightness of the rail bolts, as discussed in this thread: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=493097

 

[Jonas111]

It might be worth checking the tightness of the rail bolts, as discussed in this thread: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=493097

Did that a long time ago. Didn’t help much.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Did that a long time ago. Didn’t help much.

Sorry to hear you are having issues with your table. Did you make a video and send it to them? In fact, you might wanna post it here. You should be getting at very minimum 4 rails length wise back an forth. saw your other post about this issue. Is there even a mechanic in your area capable of workin on that table? Lets see the video?

Trent from Toledo

 

[dr_dave]

Sorry to hear you are having issues with your table. Did you make a video and send it to them? In fact, you might wanna post it here. You should be getting at very minimum 4 rails length wise back an forth. saw your other post about this issue. Is there even a mechanic in your area capable of workin on that table? Lets see the video?

If you or others post videos, please include the kick/bank test shots to show how short or long the table plays.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I have two Diamond tables in my house. I have a 7’ pro am and a 9’ Professional.

7’ plays perfectly.

I have heard that the 7’ Diamonds play very short. Have you tried the kick/bank test shots? When you do, please let us know what results you get on both tables.

Also, you mentioned the 9’ is a blue label. What about the 7’?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[iusedtoberich]

Are you back from your trip yet? If so, please share your results.

Also, has anybody else tried out the procedure in the video or the two sets of shot in the handout on other Diamond tables with different labels and of different sizes? If so, please share what you found.

Thanks,
Dave

I'm back, yes.

I was going to share the results, but I don't think they are good. IMO, the test has problems. 1) Its difficult to set up. 2) Its not repeatable. 3) Its hard to judge where the balls strike the rails if they go short/long and not in the heart of the pocket.

For 1) setup: I had tested all of the tables, and then I realized I had the CB in the wrong place on half of the test shots. So I went back and did it again. Then when I got home, I realized I still had it wrong. I'm an anal mf'r, and if I had so much trouble lining everything up, I would imagine many other people would.

For 2) I tried each shot I think 3 times (the room was closing and I was rushing to finish). (I still spend at least 30 min of everything.) The results across shots were not consistent. Sometimes they were, sometimes they were way off. I'd have to take more attempts to trust the results.

For 2 also), when I saw some one of my setup errors and later adjusted it and redid half the tests, some of the results were the same. Again, this shows inconsistencies in either the setup from shot trial to shot trial, or the reading with the eye of where the balls landed, or the stroke itself.

If I had more time, I might have set up the test tables with string for straight lines, and doughnuts for repeatability. But I only used tools most people would have, which is chalk cubes to mark the rails, a ruler, and my cue stick.

Simply too many inconsistencies to form any conclusion, and my data is not worth anything.

IMO, the only way to be consistent is with some sort of ramp that butts up against the two cushions in the corner for registration, and launches the ball at various angles into the opposite rail.

 

[dr_dave]

... has anybody else tried out the procedure in the video or the two sets of shot in the handout on other Diamond tables with different labels and of different sizes? If so, please share what you found.

I was going to share the results, but I don't think they are good. IMO, the test has problems. 1) Its difficult to set up. 2) Its not repeatable. 3) Its hard to judge where the balls strike the rails if they go short/long and not in the heart of the pocket.

For 1) setup: I had tested all of the tables, and then I realized I had the CB in the wrong place on half of the test shots. So I went back and did it again. Then when I got home, I realized I still had it wrong. I'm an anal mf'r, and if I had so much trouble lining everything up, I would imagine many other people would.

For 2) I tried each shot I think 3 times (the room was closing and I was rushing to finish). (I still spend at least 30 min of everything.) The results across shots were not consistent. Sometimes they were, sometimes they were way off. I'd have to take more attempts to trust the results.

For 2 also), when I saw some one of my setup errors and later adjusted it and redid half the tests, some of the results were the same. Again, this shows inconsistencies in either the setup from shot trial to shot trial, or the reading with the eye of where the balls landed, or the stroke itself.

If I had more time, I might have set up the test tables with string for straight lines, and doughnuts for repeatability. But I only used tools most people would have, which is chalk cubes to mark the rails, a ruler, and my cue stick.

Simply too many inconsistencies to form any conclusion, and my data is not worth anything.

You are correct that kick and bank tests like these do require some care and patience. For the shots in the video, I didn't use anything special to set them up. For the 2-to-1 kicks, I used my cue to visualize the diamond-to-diamond line, and I placed the CB carefully along this line. I then used golf tees placed at the diamonds to help me make sure the CB was on the line (sighting with one eye down the line). Chalk cubes with the corners aligned with the line would work just as well, but the golf tee on the target rail gives you something very clear to aim at during the shots. Once I was sure the CB was on the line, I tapped down to make a small mark and indentation on the cloth so I could be sure the CB was in the exact same place for every shot trial. Donuts would help here, but they are not necessary. Then I hit each shot many times being careful to aim at the tee with no sidespin. My shots were fairly consistent; but even if they were not, with enough trials you can easily identify the outliers and average. It is easy to see where the ball goes (above or below the pocket, or in one side of the pocket or the other) to decide if the ball is going long or short. I don't think exact measurements are important for our purposes here. We just want to know if a table is playing short of long. But if you want exact measurements, you can have a friend watch and mark where the ball hits, or measure this in video later.

For the bank shots, more care is required in the setup. I first carefully placed balls at all actual and "ghost" ball locations shown in the diagram, being careful everything was in a straight line. Then I tapped down on both the CB and OB positions. Then I hit a bunch of shots until I got the CB to stop in place with no sidespin. The setup requires more care, but when you hit the right shot, it is obvious based on the CB reaction.

I hope you and others will try again. It is not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be, and you don't need any special equipment or measuring devices (other than a cue, balls, and two cubes of chalk).

Thank you for the comments, and for trying,
Dave

 

[JessEm]

Certainly not a "racist" shirt lol

Besides, 'Non-English speaking' isn't a race.

If anyone seriously says it's racist they're a flaming Marxist.

 

[dr_dave]

Certainly not a "racist" shirt lol

Besides, 'Non-English speaking' isn't a race.

If anyone seriously says it's racist they're a flaming Marxist.

If there were a "race" of people who were unable to read and speak English and who also hated pool and pool physics by nature, then maybe there would be just cause to consider the "Got English?" T-shirt as racist. :grin-square:

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Meucciplayer]

If anyone seriously says it's racist they're a flaming Marxist.

Can't remember reading anything about "Got English T-shirts" in "Capital".

Yeah, I'm proudly wearing one. Not really a Marxist, though. Flaming DrDave fan, however

 

[dr_dave]

Flaming DrDave fan, however

Thank you.

Now returning to the point of the thread:

If you have convenient access to one or more Diamond tables of any model (Pro, Pro Am, Smart Table), make (Blue, Black and Red label), and size (7', 8', 9'), please try out the procedure in the video or the two sets of shot in the handout and let us know if the tables play "on system" or not. If not, please let us know approximately how much the table(s) go short or long.

Thanks,
Dave