Chalk & Awe
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It might be good if the WPA had a consultation with pool table companies and came out with an international standard for both US and English TOURNAMENT pool tables!
Diamond versus Brunswick
- Thread starter Chalk & Awe
- Start date
It might be good if the WPA had a consultation with pool table companies and came out with an international standard for both US and English TOURNAMENT pool tables!
It ain't easy to tell a mfg. to change their tooling.
Because doing anything in the pool world is like trying to heard cats. Promotors and manufacturers would rather be king of a small fiefdom rather than have a share of a meaningfully large market. That, and what governing body exists in the pool world that is worthy of respect? As has always been the case as long as I can remember, anyone with a small fortune can buy the pool world for a song...but then the challenge is all uphill from there, imo.
I think Brunswick needs to raise their game when it comes to playability, the new gold crown version offers nothing, while Diamond needs to raise their esthetics
if i were seeking a tourney table flagship at the moment I 'd consider Rasson also
if i were seeking a tourney table flagship at the moment I 'd consider Rasson also
The GC6 is basically just a 5 with new clothes. They ARE great tables but its crazy what they want for one. More than one mechanic has told me that the 5 is the best of all the GC's. I'm no mechanic, just going by what experienced mechs. have said.
For a table mfg to not be on the same page when it comes to rail profiles....it's shooting themselves in the foot if ya ask me. All tables should have the 66 profile, or should they have the 55 profile. wtf. Diamond in the early 90's had it all wrong. The GC's were evolution of the furniture tables, and were much better suited for the game itself. Be hard to believe that Brunswick didn't have input from their players on this generation of tables.
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No one is smacking anything against anything.
The Brunswick design is such that making a rail bridge (aka laying your cue down on the table and your bridge hand on top of the shaft) on the rails and especially corners or side pocket area guarantees that the shaft will scrape against metal.
Don't care what mechanic anyone is, they cannot change that. The corner and side castings have holes for the bolt. It assembles one way and that's that. You cannot make what is not built to be flush - flush.
Don't spin this into improper setup vs competent setup. This is a Brunswick design inferiority relative to Diamond.
My GC3, with FACTORY pockets would leave marks on balls. So this isn't a matter of inferior aftermarket pockets vs quality ones. Factory pockets were crap.
Let's see...
Gold Crown $9,500 - $11,500
Diamond Professional $6,000
The superior table, made in America too ...is considerably less.
Anyone who buys a GC over a Diamond considering all the facts and the price difference is smoking crack.
There's still people who go for the GC. Whether it be aesthetics, nostalgia, brand-loyalty, a lifelong quest to make it to a point in life where one can afford and have space for it (like old people who buy a sports car they couldn't have as a youth), or maybe the purely psychological factor that the GC "plays" a certain way. Since the Blue Label Diamonds...this is no longer a reality. The reasons for Brunswick are not objective, but rather preference.
But on value, on quality, on playabilty, on features, on longevity - the GC has nothing on the Diamond.
Gold Crown $9,500 - $11,500
Diamond Professional $6,000
The superior table, made in America too ...is considerably less.
Anyone who buys a GC over a Diamond considering all the facts and the price difference is smoking crack.
There's still people who go for the GC. Whether it be aesthetics, nostalgia, brand-loyalty, a lifelong quest to make it to a point in life where one can afford and have space for it (like old people who buy a sports car they couldn't have as a youth), or maybe the purely psychological factor that the GC "plays" a certain way. Since the Blue Label Diamonds...this is no longer a reality. The reasons for Brunswick are not objective, but rather preference.
But on value, on quality, on playabilty, on features, on longevity - the GC has nothing on the Diamond.
Your inability to use a piece of equipment properly is all on you. I will never agree and that is because I play on them all the time, my shop is next to a pool hall I service and I restored all the GC3s, they play great, no one complains about the things you are saying. That's a POOL HALL an no one is saying the stuff you are, its warrant-less, you have no data other than your experience + a small number of others and also your own fault if you damage your cue on a inanimate 1200+ lb pool table.
Why is it I have no issues with these marks from the pockets? I also don't hear many of the claims that you are making from customers of mine?? I have restored over 50 GC's from model 1-4???
https://www.facebook.com/pg/toledopooltables/photos/?tab=albums
Those factory plastic gc3 pockets you have are JUNK. I use aftermarket gc4 pockets, they are rubber and do not leave any marks on anything, cues or balls.
Diamond obviously got their design heavily influenced from the gc3, its not like they sat down and designed a table from scratch. Anyone who has ever built a pool table had some influence from Brunswick, funny I mention that, from my research the first Diamonds had Brunswick Superspeed Cushions on them.
Trent from Toledo
Do you work on the tables?? You would see why Diamonds are so much more affordable if ya did.
Plywood vs Hardwood
Laminated beams vs hardwood
plastic levelers that only go up vs metal that go both up and down
Diamond 1987 vs Brunswick 1845
Brunswick invented commercial pool.
Again, I love both, but, no matter where it is built I know which design is better from working on them
Plywood vs Hardwood
Laminated beams vs hardwood
plastic levelers that only go up vs metal that go both up and down
Diamond 1987 vs Brunswick 1845
Brunswick invented commercial pool.
Again, I love both, but, no matter where it is built I know which design is better from working on them
Tap Tap! I played for years on a daily basis and probably 90% of the time it was on a Gold Crown table. What I liked the most was how similar they all played, from GCI's to III's. By the time the GCIV came along I was basically retired as a pool player (not completely though :smile
and was now a room owner. If I ever had an accident on a GC like catching my pants on a metal edge that was on me to be more careful. In all the thousands of hours that I played it may have happened two or three times. As far as damaging my cue along the metal edge of a table, it may have also happened once or twice where I let the cue slip out of my hands. The one thing I didn't do was lay my cue on the rail while racking like I often see today's players doing. You'd be surprised how easy it is for the cue to roll off the table and in the process hit the shaft on the metal rail trim. Ding!
The weird thing that I learned was to NOT let anyone play with my cue. Period! More than a couple of times when I did that, my cue came back with a brand new ding in the shaft. Of course the person who borrowed it had no idea how it happened. That one is on me too for being so stupid to put my prized cue in someone else's hands.
P.S. The absolute worst thing was a couple of times when breaking in 9-Ball I hit my knuckle on the edge of the table. OUCH! That smarts. If you've ever done it you know what I'm talking about.
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Thanks Jay!!!
I wanna stop here for a second.
This has been a very productive thread, even though it has been argued so many times before.
No war has been started over this.
I have learned some new things and hope others have to.
I have been on many forums and this is sort of a unique one. It can be ruthless sometimes. I love pool and chatting about it obviously.
I do want to apologize if I come across anything other than passionate because that is not my intent. I pretty much work every day because I want to. My life revolves around my business that is also one of my main hobbies.
I am very blessed to have the knowledge base I have and by no means did I learn all this stuff on my own. I have some of the best mechanics in the world who have been so giving of their time and knowledge. I am deeply thankful to all of those people who have helped me. Thanks
Trent from Toledo
p.s. in the span of what is to be known in high end Billiard Mechanics, I know I am new.
I wanna stop here for a second.
This has been a very productive thread, even though it has been argued so many times before.
No war has been started over this.
I have learned some new things and hope others have to.
I have been on many forums and this is sort of a unique one. It can be ruthless sometimes. I love pool and chatting about it obviously.
I do want to apologize if I come across anything other than passionate because that is not my intent. I pretty much work every day because I want to. My life revolves around my business that is also one of my main hobbies.
I am very blessed to have the knowledge base I have and by no means did I learn all this stuff on my own. I have some of the best mechanics in the world who have been so giving of their time and knowledge. I am deeply thankful to all of those people who have helped me. Thanks
Trent from Toledo
p.s. in the span of what is to be known in high end Billiard Mechanics, I know I am new.
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This is completely objective, repeatable and a fact that bridging on a GC 1, 2 or 3 leads to the shaft touching metal, gliding or scraping across it. On the 4 and after, it is only on the pockets this happens.
You can dishonestly continue the "blame the user" approach, but anyone who has played on either knows.
When I play on a GC of any generation, I've never damaged my cue. But that's because I bridge differently when over or near a pocket. Why should I have use a standard bridge on the rail to spare the shaft the abrasion of a metal pocket casting? On a Diamond, I can lay the shaft directly on the pocket with no concerns.
Do some searches here, not a new issue. Plastic pockets leaving marks on balls goes back a long time.
Thank you for agreeing to what I was saying. FACTORY pockets are trash. Why should I dish out that much cash for a GC, and then have to use after-market pockets to resolve an issue?
Even if I buy after market buckets that don't leave marks, they still have the plastic flange/lip up top that hangs on the pocket castings which are not as pleasant to bridge on....
Classy response! Al Conte was THE master mechanic during my time running pool tournaments. He was the MAN for Brunswick for years! For good reason too. He knew the GC front and back and could set up eight of them PERFECTLY in one day. He showed me what a well set up table should play like and why! I learned a lot from him just by observation. And what a class act he was too, soft spoken but firm and commanding respect from all who knew him. I was very fortunate to keep his company as often as I did. :thumbup2:
Dishonest? No, more like facts vs opinions.
Your argument is based on opinions. Yours and a handful of others, then on the other hand, when you think of how many HAPPY people that love Gold Crowns, its safe to say more people love them than hate.
I present facts and hard data from my experience with the products I sell and my clients feedback.
Funny, Brunswick does not make plastic pockets anymore, they are flush with the table on the gc4,5,6. So no need to do anything to any of those models. Oh yeah and the GC4 pockets are backwards compatible with all previous GC models.
Great chatting with you.I think we are done here.
Trent from Toledo
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Also, what's with the claim that Brunswick uses hardwood? Is this to imply solid one-piece sections of wood? They are not.
The frame is laminate. Just because they stain it very dark does not mean the frame is solid one-piece wood beams. Look closely. The cross beams are one piece, but that's nothing.
The bottom half, the legs and pedestals are made with plywood too.
The rails are not laminate or plywood. They are hardwood. Which is actually an area I'd prefer laminate for better stability and strength. Since Brunswick covers them with formica it would make sense. Instead they use solid hardwood and then cover it. Since the rail sections are all individual, this isn't as big of an issue as opposed to table designs that have one piece long rails.
So the claims are wrong. But this actually works in favor of Brunswick, the laminate construction of their frame helps, it doesn't hurt it. Makes it stronger and less prone to warp.
I have SEEN warped Brunswick Gold Crown frame. It can happen.
Thus, the 'Diamond uses plywood' statement, in order to bash Diamond or infer that Diamond is cheaper or of lower quality is pure BS.
No one is hating on Brunswick. No one is saying that playing on a Brunswick is a mine-field of impending cue or clothes damage. Jeesh! But they are inferior to Diamond when it comes to contact surfaces. Diamond is more flush, has no metal on the surface, nothing to scrape, damage or catch anything.
I've been playing on GC for 25 years, mainly on 2's, my 3 and 4's. I own a GC3. Ya, it's probably the worst generation of GC, but the others aren't significantly better. I've never damaged my cue. But the Diamond is more user-friendly. More solid too.
The frame is laminate. Just because they stain it very dark does not mean the frame is solid one-piece wood beams. Look closely. The cross beams are one piece, but that's nothing.
The bottom half, the legs and pedestals are made with plywood too.
The rails are not laminate or plywood. They are hardwood. Which is actually an area I'd prefer laminate for better stability and strength. Since Brunswick covers them with formica it would make sense. Instead they use solid hardwood and then cover it. Since the rail sections are all individual, this isn't as big of an issue as opposed to table designs that have one piece long rails.
So the claims are wrong. But this actually works in favor of Brunswick, the laminate construction of their frame helps, it doesn't hurt it. Makes it stronger and less prone to warp.
I have SEEN warped Brunswick Gold Crown frame. It can happen.
Thus, the 'Diamond uses plywood' statement, in order to bash Diamond or infer that Diamond is cheaper or of lower quality is pure BS.
No one is hating on Brunswick. No one is saying that playing on a Brunswick is a mine-field of impending cue or clothes damage. Jeesh! But they are inferior to Diamond when it comes to contact surfaces. Diamond is more flush, has no metal on the surface, nothing to scrape, damage or catch anything.
I've been playing on GC for 25 years, mainly on 2's, my 3 and 4's. I own a GC3. Ya, it's probably the worst generation of GC, but the others aren't significantly better. I've never damaged my cue. But the Diamond is more user-friendly. More solid too.
Rasson reminds me of a Murray, Gandy, Black Crown....etc
...I think you need to google esthetics.
It is butcher blocked hardwood: aprons and frame, the rails are poplar.
I work on them all the time, actually installing a gc3 later today!
Legs are framed in poplar and plywood, out edges are butcher blocked poplar then fronts and backs skinned with 1/8 plywood.
The GC 1 and 2 frames are in fact solid wood.
No one will ever sell me a piece of plywood over hardwood. It is also a fact that plywood is immensely cheaper than hard wood.
I am happy to hear you are a GC3 owner, dialed in right, they are awesome tables. Hacked up, well we know how that plays...
Thanks for remaining civil and I appreciate your comments and input.
It is hard to have these types of conversations and remain constructive
We both can agree we love pool !!! I love both tables, but, will always be a Brunswick guy first. Nostalgia, addiction, what ever you want to call it, I have it.
Trent from Toledo
I work on them all the time, actually installing a gc3 later today!
Legs are framed in poplar and plywood, out edges are butcher blocked poplar then fronts and backs skinned with 1/8 plywood.
The GC 1 and 2 frames are in fact solid wood.
No one will ever sell me a piece of plywood over hardwood. It is also a fact that plywood is immensely cheaper than hard wood.
I am happy to hear you are a GC3 owner, dialed in right, they are awesome tables. Hacked up, well we know how that plays...
Thanks for remaining civil and I appreciate your comments and input.
It is hard to have these types of conversations and remain constructive
We both can agree we love pool !!! I love both tables, but, will always be a Brunswick guy first. Nostalgia, addiction, what ever you want to call it, I have it.
Trent from Toledo
Hi Jay,
You are spot on about Al Conte. He was friend and mentor to me. When he was alive he lurked on this forum. Too many egos he would say. I don’t post on here much anymore because there are too many know it alls and certain guys that chime in just to see there name on the post. Have a Happy New Year Jay!