Diamond versus Brunswick
- Thread starter Chalk & Awe
- Start date
Maybe Rasson copied the Gabriel's table.
Damn, Rasson woke up and ditched the K66 Artemis and have gone to Klematch K55.
Now, if they can only do the corners at 4 7/16 139*.
Not at all, The Rasson Victory II Plus was obviously a direct design theft from Gabriels
Rasson is not as good as any of the 3, but, I suspect they will be a player on the world pool scene for a long time if they play their cards right. Fun kind of thread. I know its an old topic, but, pool changes all the time, so do opinions. People are just expressing their views, a lil friendly banter back and forth , some players, some people who work on them.
Trent
Maybe Rasson copied the Gabriel's table.
Damn, Rasson woke up and ditched the K66 Artemis and have gone to Klematch K55.
Now, if they can only do the corners at 4 7/16 139*.
Yess!!! Should play much differently. Kevina from Rasson mentioned that the other day
Trent
Maybe Rasson copied the Gabriel's table.
Damn, Rasson woke up and ditched the K66 Artemis and have gone to Klematch K55.
Now, if they can only do the corners at 4 7/16 139*.
Yess!!! Should play much differently. Kevina from Rasson mentioned that the other day
Trent
I can't wait for you to try klematch.Yess!!! Should play much differently. Kevina from Rasson mentioned that the other day
Trent
We have Klematch / Kleber on our 10-foot Gabriel's Sentinel table. They are supposedly as good or better than Artemis. For the price, they should be! I'm sure Rasson didn't switch to Klematch / Kleber to save money, but more likely to try to set themselves a little apart from Diamond.Yess!!! Should play much differently. Kevina from Rasson mentioned that the other day
Trent
They switched because it was necessary because the table should have a k-55 cushion if thats what all other tournament tables have. They also went klematch because Saluc ownes them. The cushion specs are here: http://www.klematch.com/datasheet/P59_gb.pdf
less than 1 inch across the top of the cushion??? hmmmm, seems like its still not gonna be enough. We shall see!
Trent from Toledo
less than 1 inch across the top of the cushion??? hmmmm, seems like its still not gonna be enough. We shall see!
Trent from Toledo
Not sure where you get your information, but Klematch is NOT owned by Saluc. It is owned by the Japanese company Sumitomo Riko Group which took over the Anvis group in 2013.
Simonis is owned by Saluc and they either own them or are their Distributor.
http://www.simoniscloth.com/simonis-products/klematch-cushions
I did make an assumption and could very well be wrong. I will get in touch with Felice and get the facts. But the link above surely says something because Simonis has it on their site. Something just happened with Kleber and Klematch becoming one company. I am sure we can find out the truth!
Either way since they use Simonis on all their tables it would in fact make it easier for them, in quite a few ways mostly $$$$$$$$ COST.
Most of my information usually comes from the horses mouth. I was just setting up my account to buy the tables from their US Distibutor.
Trent from Toledo
P.s. Do you realize its 2019 and that was 6 years ago, things change! Waiting for a definite answer
http://www.simoniscloth.com/simonis-products/klematch-cushions
I did make an assumption and could very well be wrong. I will get in touch with Felice and get the facts. But the link above surely says something because Simonis has it on their site. Something just happened with Kleber and Klematch becoming one company. I am sure we can find out the truth!
Either way since they use Simonis on all their tables it would in fact make it easier for them, in quite a few ways mostly $$$$$$$$ COST.
Most of my information usually comes from the horses mouth. I was just setting up my account to buy the tables from their US Distibutor.
Trent from Toledo
P.s. Do you realize its 2019 and that was 6 years ago, things change! Waiting for a definite answer
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I was told the same things you said in ^^^^^^^ post.
Simonis is owned by Saluc and they either own them or are their Distributor.
http://www.simoniscloth.com/simonis-products/klematch-cushions
I did make an assumption and could very well be wrong. I will get in touch with Felice and get the facts. But the link above surely says something because Simonis has it on their site. Something just happened with Kleber and Klematch becoming one company. I am sure we can find out the truth!
Either way since they use Simonis on all their tables it would in fact make it easier for the, in quite a few ways mostly $$$$$$$$ COST.
Most of my information usually comes from the horses mouth. I was just setting up my account to buy the tables from their US Distibutor.
Trent from Toledo
P.s. Do you realize its 2019 and that was 6 years ago, things change! Waiting for a definite answer
Of course I realize that...lol. That is why before I posted my previous post, I looked at both the recent Sumitomo Riko and the Klematch websites. Both refer to Sumitomo Riko owning Klematch. Kleber becoming Klematch was not a recent change. Anvis Industries rebranded the Kleber name to Klematch a few years back. Kleber was at one time owned by Michelin until it was taken over by the Anvis Group in the late 2000s. I just did a search of the Simonis site along with the Peltzer & Fils Group (owner of Simonis and Saluc as well as WSP textiles-the English Strachan brand of billiard cloth) and the Saluc Group and there is no mention of an acquisition of Klematch or Anvis. Every other acquisition is mentioned. I could be wrong, but perhaps Simonis only has the distribution rights to Klematch or perhaps they do own them and don't want anyone to know it. Either way, I am sure you will get to the bottom of it however, and find out the truth.
When you get your account set up to Purchase Rasson tables from Imperial, let us know how the rails play compared to a Diamond. I know RKC posted that he was not a big fan of the Kleber/Klematch cushions playability when he tried them on a Diamond a few years ago. I do like the Rasson levelling system. It seems more up to date and modern than Diamond's system.
WOW< great job researchin and thanks for the detailed info! It wont be for a while, I dont want any of those tables that have the Artemis Pool 66 on them at all. The table definitely has me intrigued! I been dying to get my hands on one and see whats what!
Trent from Toledo
I agree, 1 inch wouldn't really work too well unless the subrails were modified. It presents the same scenario that I currently have with my Anniversary. When the sub rails were recut to the proper angle to change from the original Brunswick Monarch cushions to K-55 Black Diamonds they didn't account for the reduction in subrail depth, so now mine are about 1-3/4", when they really need to be 2 " deep to get the pockets and playing surface in specs. This is why I hired Jerimy Chambers to make some new rails for me, and I also want to get the pockets tightened to pro cut size and then later on down the road have the original sub rails fixed to stock size. It will be nice to have an extra set of rails.
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Yes, I almost bought one a year ago. It came down to the Rasson or the Diamond Professional. I have been looking at the Rasson Victory table in detail ever since it was chosen over 5 1/2 years ago in 2013 as the official table for Bonus Ball (remember that). I was always impressed by its construction. The one reservation I have always had is that they never tell you how the actual rails are constructed. And that is the most important part in regards to a table's playability. Are they butcher block? What type of hardwood is used? How heavy and dense are they? What is the sub rail angle? What is the pocket opening and cushion angles? What is the down angle? What is the attachment mechanism? What is the maximum rail height? What is the facing thickness and material type? What type of glue is used to attach the cushions and facings to the rail? What are the pocket angle and size tolerances? These are all important questions, in my opinion, when buying a table. I love the way the rest of the table is constructed though. I have researched this table for over 5 years and the Diamond tables for the last 8 years. I also briefly considered a Gabriels sentinel but ruled it out when, again, there was not enough detailed info on it other than what was available on this site. The Gabriels Gryffon is fairly new (over the last year or so) and was not available when I made my decision to buy. It has obviously replaced the Sentinel as I do not see that available anymore. I would love to see detailed construction info on this table as it seems they are copying the Rasson Victory. The Gryffon design was not available up until the last year or so, so I am certain Gabriels copied Rasson and not the other way around. I am a lover of wood and wood grain and so I do not think I would be impressed with the Gryffon's aluminum blinds however. I even waited for the Gold Crown VI to come out (it was delayed a couple years from its initial announcement after the design competition they had for it). I saw it being used in Japan last fall and was not impressed with its looks. When it was finally on the website, they have not made any updated improvements to the leveling system so I dismissed that table (I liked the looks of the Gold Crown V better but felt that Brunswick should have improved them more). In the end, this past summer, I took delivery of my brand new 4 1/2 x 9 Diamond Professional with Simonis 760 Tournament Blue in Granadillo wood with rounded corners with matching Granadillo light with the rounded corners as well. I also purchased a matching Granadillo chair unit (2 chairs) with blue cloth and matching Granadillo 6 cue rack and matching Granadillo triangle rack and holder. Additionally, I purchased the brown Diamond cover and the Diamond dual ball polisher/cleaner. I may purchase an additional matching rack and chair unit this year. It went upstairs, so it is the three piece 5/4" slate. It is a beautiful table, plays wonderfully and I am glad I made my decision to go with it. That Granadillo wood is extremely heavy and dense and just gorgeous. I declined to have any of the huge Diamond logos routed into the sides and ends of the table or light as I believe that just detracts from the beauty of the wood. I went with the Type 2 legs with brass feet. I think it looks much better than the pedestal look or the Type 3 that has no feet. Oh, and lastly, I unloaded all the pieces (rented a small forklift) and installed the entire table and accessories myself. Bought myself a couple of brand new 12 inch Starrett levels and a 6 ft Starrett straight edge accurate to within one thousands per foot. Took my time but did it all the right way.
Heck yeah man! You surely did your research and no doubt got what you wanted! I can appreciate when anyone goes out and handles things just like you did! Hats off.
I been watching that table for a long time too!! Congrats on your adventure and new table!!! Post up some pics, I bet that wood looks AMAZING!
Trent from Toledo
I just want to know one thing. Are all you guys now using the new RKC super glue or not? Tell the truth now! lol 
I just want to know one thing. Are all you guys now using the new RKC super glue or not? Tell the truth now! lol
Anyone who RKC has helped SHOULD be using it. i have been using FASTBOND N10($95 per gallon shipped) I could use parabond m250( can get very cheap) and have no problems. Glen has spend so much dang time on the phone helping me, its the least I can do..... I like supporting another fellow pool player and one of the best mechanics ever.
Trent
My 2 gallon order that is in route.
I'm 41 and started playing in a pool room that had diamonds, so I became used to those first. The first time I saw a gold crown I thought it looked pretty cheesey with it's Formica rails or whatever they are. I played on them anyway and enjoyed it, but always preferred playing on the diamond.
As an aside, as a Brunswick shareholder, I find it interesting that in Brunswick's quarterly earnings releases, one can literally find no mention of the words "pool" or " billiards" and they report their efforts in our arena under the "other" category, lol. They are a boat manufacturer that also makes fitness equipment. The fact that they continue to make the gold crown is literally a mystery to me. I'm happy to own their shares, but not their tables. If they start making one that is better in form or function to the diamond professional, then I'll buy that, as I always want the best value for my money.
Maybe Rasson copied the Gabriel's table.
Damn, Rasson woke up and ditched the K66 Artemis and have gone to Klematch K55.
Now, if they can only do the corners at 4 7/16 139*.
I thought the European rotation events, were all using the Intercontinental 66 cushions, as were used in DCC 2018.
Are the 55 rail profiles the same?
Why in the world won't ALL table mfg. in the 21st century....use the same cushions ?????????????? :shrug:. MONEY$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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