Different Taper

There are many ways to approach this, as you have seen with good comments already.

An example would be that Ray Schuler offered at least 8 tapers as I recall, and probably more if you worked with him on it. The man was a genius and had at least 8 tapers available? Those were primarily carom billiard cues, but also pool. If you include all cue sports and styles of play it's a huge topic. And good cue makers tend to be pretty smart dudes. You can't always break down what they have done by the numbers like "measured deflection". It's downright black magic sometimes. Please let me keep believing that, don't burst my bubble.

Suffice it to say that most people that play pool prefer a "pro" taper, a shaft that remains the same diameter for a great length before tapering up larger, like 12 to 14 inches.

The most extreme type would be some attempts that are interesting but unsuccessful. Examples would be the old Flex-Craft cues with a straight non-tapered shaft into a handle, I have a couple versions in my collection. Over the years people often frowned on things like carbon fiber, fiberglass, and essentially anything other than wood, and especially anything without some kind of taper, but look at what is happening now with CF. It will not surprise me if at some point we see another serious attempt at something like what Flex-Craft did but with CF.

At the other end of extreme, the pure conical shaft, you will find a pool player that will stay with his pool cue while transitioning to billiards, but after a certain point they are likely to move to a billiards or carom conical taper.

In between those two extremes the possibilities of the variations of sigmoid and parabolic curves and the relative dimensions are endless.

Most of my cues are pool cues, only one snooker, and a few carom/billiard, and then several jump and masse cues. Most have some version of a pro taper. Even the billiard cues are not all fully conical. I have a billiard cue made by USBA National Champion Harry Simms, and it is not fully conical, nor is it a real pro taper. It's what he preferred I guess. Legend has it Harry ran 11 racks of 9 ball before he became a serious 3 cushion player, so I suspect he knew a thing or two about cues. I am fortunate to have had some exchange with someone who was close to him.

The lesson from that little story about Harry Simms makes think the discussion about tapers will be eternal, and there isn't a single correct answer to most questions on the matter.

I love to get four or five cues out and compare how they play. Just taking my Joss and all the shafts I have for it to compare is fun. I have two original Joss that play the same. Two Stroud that play the same, and one Scruggs that plays like neither of the other makers.

I think truly excellent players can often adapt to a wider variety of shaft types, so a banger like me might be more sensitive to it. Maybe a better player could describe the difference more intelligently though? Or maybe they just naturally adapt by their aptitude? Probably depends on the player.


I would say ask the individual player. Most will likely say it is very important, but after that any further discussion could vary wildly.

Then add diameter, tip choice, balance, etc. and we realize why this sport is so obsessed with that piece of equipment. It never ends and there is no answer...until the next great fad and the religion that follows it, LOL!

I cut my teeth in an old building that would have been condemned if it were ever inspected. Five by tens long neglected, deep cloth, ancient cues. There was a cue there with no name on it but it sounds like the flexcraft you describe. Basically zero taper straight cylinder from tip to fixed joint on that particular cue. It had warped to a ridiculous degree. I had to try it just for grins and I probably had to hold the butt close to a foot higher than normal just because of the curve in the shaft!

I have been having thoughts similar to yours, might be time to revisit the concept of a very slight taper in the shaft, a few thousandths to the foot, with a similar design to the flexcraft. With a CF shaft, it might be possible to have a straight cylinder on the outside and an internal taper to create an acceptable flex. The CF shafts and manufacturing process might open a lot of doors. Perhaps just varying the pitch of the reinforcing fiber could alter the flex to suit.

Anyway, just wanted to say there were two of us thinking about the potential of old designs with new materials. I am happy to have a name for that old cue too, or similar ones. There was no marking so no idea if that old cue was a flexcraft or not.

Hu
 
Dont they affect your strokes though ?
Compare say, a Tad to any snooker cue. If you worked out a perfect level stroke - IOW perfect elbow drop, when you switch to a snooker cue, you have to fight all that muscle memory to keep the tip from rising.

...and vice versa...
 
Compare say, a Tad to any snooker cue. If you worked out a perfect level stroke - IOW perfect elbow drop, when you switch to a snooker cue, you have to fight all that muscle memory to keep the tip from rising.

...and vice versa...
This is true, my tip raises somewhat with hybrid and conical but not with pro
 
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I have been having thoughts similar to yours...
Ah, same mental disease. Good to have company.

I love cues as much I love pool. These tools, the art of their construction, and the history of it are all fascinating to me.

My concern with the idea we are talking about is that the instrument we are talking about is going to look more like a fishing pole than a Balabushka. LOL!

Shakespeare, speaking of fishing poles, did have a line of pool cues. Although they didn't look like fishing poles they did have a strange but contour, long aluminum joint, fiberglass shaft, and aluminum ferrules.

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Ah, same mental disease. Good to have company.

I love cues as much I love pool. These tools, the art of their construction, and the history of it are all fascinating to me.

My concern with the idea we are talking about is that the instrument we are talking about is going to look more like a fishing pole than a Balabushka. LOL!

Shakespeare, speaking of fishing poles, did have a line of pool cues. Although they didn't look like fishing poles they did have a strange but contour, long aluminum joint, fiberglass shaft, and aluminum ferrules.

View attachment 810633

View attachment 810634

View attachment 810635
That look like a pro taper on the shaft for about 6" ? I love pool and equipments as much as pool too
 
Ah, same mental disease. Good to have company.

I love cues as much I love pool. These tools, the art of their construction, and the history of it are all fascinating to me.

My concern with the idea we are talking about is that the instrument we are talking about is going to look more like a fishing pole than a Balabushka. LOL!

Shakespeare, speaking of fishing poles, did have a line of pool cues. Although they didn't look like fishing poles they did have a strange but contour, long aluminum joint, fiberglass shaft, and aluminum ferrules.

View attachment 810633

View attachment 810634

View attachment 810635

The pool cue I am thinking of would have little in the way of beauty, more pure function. The CF shafts are blatant mismatches with most butts now. Custom butts will probably be designed to look good with CF shafts if the expected move largely to CF shafts takes place.

I never knew that Shakespeare cue existed. The two tone ferrule looks like it had a very thick nylon type pad or two layer ferrule too. I have seen some odd profile butts similar to the Shakespeare but not identical. Can you comment on the balance and hit of that thing? Just idle curiosity on my part.

Hu
 
The pool cue I am thinking of would have little in the way of beauty, more pure function. The CF shafts are blatant mismatches with most butts now. Custom butts will probably be designed to look good with CF shafts if the expected move largely to CF shafts takes place.

I never knew that Shakespeare cue existed. The two tone ferrule looks like it had a very thick nylon type pad or two layer ferrule too. I have seen some odd profile butts similar to the Shakespeare but not identical. Can you comment on the balance and hit of that thing? Just idle curiosity on my part.

Hu
I wish I could comment. That cue, with original branded leather case, in perfect condition, sold for $50 several years ago and I didn't buy it. I just have pictures. I have thousands of cue pictures from research, and I like the obscure stuff.

I don't know if that ferrule screws in, or if the shaft is hollow, or any such thing. I have other pictures, and there re some slight model variations, but that is the best condition one I have found...and I missed it.

There are others for sale now, but over $100 in worse condition. I am not willing to spend that much on such a curio and am happy with pictures right now.
 
I wish I could comment. That cue, with original branded leather case, in perfect condition, sold for $50 several years ago and I didn't buy it. I just have pictures. I have thousands of cue pictures from research, and I like the obscure stuff.

I don't know if that ferrule screws in, or if the shaft is hollow, or any such thing. I have other pictures, and there re some slight model variations, but that is the best condition one I have found...and I missed it.

There are others for sale now, but over $100 in worse condition. I am not willing to spend that much on such a curio and am happy with pictures right now.

Thanks for letting me know! I spend a lot of time looking at things I don't want to buy too. Cost, and I would be the hoarder from hell! I find a lot of things interesting.

Hu
 
The pool cue I am thinking of would have little in the way of beauty, more pure function. The CF shafts are blatant mismatches with most butts now. Custom butts will probably be designed to look good with CF shafts if the expected move largely to CF shafts takes place.
I think we're already seeing that with the major manufacturers. I've noticed a lot of the more modern cues seem to be designed around the black carbon shaft. At least for my Preds most of the new cues look weird with a wood shaft and my more traditional butts look terrible with carbon.
Maybe it's just me.
 
" Pro-taper" was butchered years after it named . The original "pro-taper" is a gradual rise in the stroking section. NOT NO-TAPER or straight.
Make your life easier . Just measure the middle of the your shaft ( the one you really like ) and check the diam compared to the tip.
If it's 1mm larger than the tip, then that's your guidline .
 
How important is different taper for the player ? There are 3 kinds that I know. I heard that someone may do better with Pro and not as much with Conical and vice versa ?

Conical
Hybrid
Pro Taper
Only person that can determine this is yourself trying various examples of taper (ask your pool playing friends to try their sticks or local cue shop). Diameter also has a factor, along with tip preference. Just like golf (club head material, forged or cast, CF or metal, shaft stiffness and material, grip types), there are a lot of factors that can fine tune the equipment you play with...
 
" Pro-taper" was butchered years after it named . The original "pro-taper" is a gradual rise in the stroking section. NOT NO-TAPER or straight.
Make your life easier . Just measure the middle of the your shaft ( the one you really like ) and check the diam compared to the tip.
If it's 1mm larger than the tip, then that's your guidline .

When I was trying to find the profile for my shafts I turned one shaft like it was claimed Earl was playing with, sixteen inches of straight cylinder from the tip. I took it to Buff's to try. It flexed right where the taper went from zero to a mild taper, no flex closer to the tip. Crappiest shaft I have ever shot with. Hard to imagine how bad it was if you haven't tried one like it. Heads turned at the loud snap before I put it in the garbage can. I didn't want anyone to fish it out and have my name attached to that shaft.

The slight rise you mention works great. No rise sucks!

Hu
 
Thanks for letting me know! I spend a lot of time looking at things I don't want to buy too. Cost, and I would be the hoarder from hell! I find a lot of things interesting.

Hu
I decided years ago to keep pictures, and records of sales of things I wasn't going to buy. In spite of that, there are many pics I should have kept and didn't.

Anyway, I have over 200 cues now, so I do have a problem. And I just bought four more...and a rare case. That's what happened after I logged onto AZB after years. Oh well. Just more to hide from the wife. I told her the case came with one of the cues, it was just shipped separate. That helps, right?

Oh...a Gandy, a 4 point with veneers and window Viking from about 1970, and 2 unknowns (merry widows, 60's or 70's, good cues but unknown...cheap). The case? Oh that's a cool one. One of those unknown Fellini types with the button instead of a latch.

I love unknowns and will slave forever to discover their origin.

Oh, the tapers? I have no idea. They are not my Joss.

Cues...magical instruments...make money evaporate...
 
I decided years ago to keep pictures, and records of sales of things I wasn't going to buy. In spite of that, there are many pics I should have kept and didn't.

Anyway, I have over 200 cues now, so I do have a problem. And I just bought four more...and a rare case. That's what happened after I logged onto AZB after years. Oh well. Just more to hide from the wife. I told her the case came with one of the cues, it was just shipped separate. That helps, right?

Oh...a Gandy, a 4 point with veneers and window Viking from about 1970, and 2 unknowns (merry widows, 60's or 70's, good cues but unknown...cheap). The case? Oh that's a cool one. One of those unknown Fellini types with the button instead of a latch.

I love unknowns and will slave forever to discover their origin.

Oh, the tapers? I have no idea. They are not my Joss.

Cues...magical instruments...make money evaporate...

A friend of mine had a thing for rifles. After awhile he hit on the idea of stainless and synthetic model 700's. He rotates them between truck, office, and home safe/vault. When his wife asks if one is new, "naah, just been in the safe." I'm afraid I am the guilty party that got him into full customs. Now he is into AR's, suppressors, and family outings!

Hu
 
I want to preface that I'm not meaning this disparagingly or anything, just mainly discussing my opinion on it.

I get it but with an engineering mindset think of it this way. Your project has a budget and a timeline. Is it worth focusing X amount of man hours and budget on a problem that will only improve your final product by 2% or is it better to use the same man hours and budget to fix something that will improve the final product by 20%?

Please note, I am not saying this stuff doesn't matter at all, and it is fun to discuss. I'm saying it's so minute that unless you build a robot to stroke the cue for you it's beyond the point of diminishing returns. Plug the hole in the bucket first and then you can worry about making the outside look shiny.

No matter how scientific, engineering minded, good at physics, etc you are... we are still only human. Stroke errors will contribute to a much higher percentage of error than taper. So will fundamentals, mental errors, strategic errors, etc. Focusing on something with such a tiny percentage of improvement isn't being efficient with your resources and time. You would probably find more improvement in your pool game by taking a daily vitamin. No joke. If you don't like conical taper then use some form of pro taper. If you bridge 8" away consistently, get a 12" pro taper, if you bridge 12" away, get a 20" pro taper. It's not an exact science, the point is you don't want the taper to change as it goes through your bridge... a conical does this. Some people like them and can play perfection pool with them. I don't. It's personal preference and what you like. A preference, and just like arguing if catsup or mustard is better, there is no hard truth to it. Try your friend's cues or see if you can try some belonging to the regulars at your pool hall. Try the ones they have for sale at tournaments, etc.

Sure, it's fun to nerd out on the minute details but it isn't an efficient use of your time and resources until you are so good that you MUST chase the small diminishing returns. Plug the hole in the bucket to begin with, then at some point worry about how shiny it is.

I'm not saying to use a house cue or a broomstick. Obviously playing with better equipment can help. I'm saying that unless you are world class at pool your resources would be better focused elsewhere. Any cue in a normal range will serve you well. Once proficient at it you will be able to form opinions such as taper, weight, balance point, tip curvature, etc. Anyway, sorry for the wordy reply, hope everything works well for you. :)

I don't know just how in depth of an answer you are looking for but there has been a lot of things discussed amongst cuemakers, and some things that they keep as secret. You can get into the speed of sound in different woods, wave propagation and all sorts of things. You might even google some of the stuff in the cuemaker's forum. You might find some interesting stuff in the archives. I vaguely recall Meucci doing extensive deflection testing that was posted in older pool magazines. There's a plethora of variables. Probably enough you could spend an entire lifetime studying them and never figure it all out.
It may be seen as wasted time by many, but many of us have fun doing just that. It's part and parcel of the enjoyment we derive, irregardless of if it's wasted. One man's trash is another's treasure.
 
A friend of mine had a thing for rifles. After awhile he hit on the idea of stainless and synthetic model 700's. He rotates them between truck, office, and home safe/vault. When his wife asks if one is new, "naah, just been in the safe." I'm afraid I am the guilty party that got him into full customs. Now he is into AR's, suppressors, and family outings!

Hu
Don't get me started on firearms. I've been shooting since I was 8, still have my first rifle and pistol. Only ever sold one rifle, and gave another to a good friend. Never sold a handgun.

That's what I was buying during my break from pool cues over the last few years. LOL! I am waiting for my most recent purchase now. A 1980's brand new FEG AK47. Believe it or not, I got it for $450. Yes, it's actually brand new.

So yeah, I have more than one problem.
 
Guns magically appear in the safe. There are so many at this point, she just can’t keep track. So as long as she can find her watches, she couldn’t care less. Cues, however, are a recent addiction since I started playing again. Those need to be handled with sleight of hand! LOL
 
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