Dificult situation concerning double elim. brackets

[TX Poolnut]

I wonder what the result would be if two players failed to show for a finals match? I wonder what would have happened if Archer and Hohmann had both overslept right before the BCA Finals were to be played a few months ago. I wish Bob Jewett and Mike Shamos would chime in on this thread. I'd like to hear any BCA ref's opinion on this one. Just curious. Thank you to all who have put forth their 2 pesos.

 

[Barbara]

If one of the players would have been there would you have simply put the other player on the loser side or kicked him out of the tourney? Most tournaments I know of would have just put the one player that didnt show up on the losers side. If that is the case I cant justify kicking both players totally out of the tournament.

Understand Im not trying to support someone for not showing up on time, just trying to get a good solid answer on how it should have been handled and why.

Woody,

I can't do that. In my tournaments you receive points based on your finish. If I advanced a name they would be credited with winning a match when in fact, they didn't. both players on my chart would receive 0 points.

EDIT: Actually, the two players would each receive the appropriate "two and out" points awarded because that would depend on the size of the initial field and they had already paid for their starting positions in the field.

Barbara

 

[Captain]

Sharp lookin' cue, Woody!--AS

 

[MFB]

I would advance the guy that showed up. Tell him he got lucky. End of story.

 

[Stewscue]

wow that does really suck. I like the coin flip.

 

[woody_968]

Barbara, I was thinking on the local tournament scale, I hadnt even considered what it would do on a tour where points are kept. That would be a problem.

In my tournaments you receive points based on your finish. If I advanced a name they would be credited with winning a match when in fact, they didn't. both players on my chart would receive 0 points.

But if you dont give points for a match they didnt play, by taking them off of both sides (by inserting buys) arent you giving two other people points for winning a match they didnt play?

Im not trying to bust your chops on this, I am just playing devils advocate. I really am interested in the hows and whys this would be handled on a major tour.

Woody

 

[Barbara]

Barbara, I was thinking on the local tournament scale, I hadnt even considered what it would do on a tour where points are kept. That would be a problem.




But if you dont give points for a match they didnt play, by taking them off of both sides (by inserting buys) arent you giving two other people points for winning a match they didnt play?

Im not trying to bust your chops on this, I am just playing devils advocate. I really am interested in the hows and whys this would be handled on a major tour.

Woody

Woody,

The fact is that both players forfeited the match and byes should be inserted into the chart for the next advancement. The players on the right and left side of the chart that now get a bye instead of having to play a match is just their lucky day.

Barbara

 

[Bob Jewett]

Just when I thought I had it all figured out... .

I think your first mistake was to have a double elimination tournament. I think a single-elimination with buy-back is a much better format and it doesn't require late risers to be on time. It does work better for handicapped situations, though.

 

[Side Pocket Kid]

I think your first mistake was to have a double elimination tournament. I think a single-elimination with buy-back is a much better format and it doesn't require late risers to be on time. It does work better for handicapped situations, though.

Only problem is that losers will keep on buying in, and late risers would skip rounds like having bye's. If you do allow buy-back you have to limit it.

 

[sjm]

Woody,

The fact is that both players forfeited the match and byes should be inserted into the chart for the next advancement. The players on the right and left side of the chart that now get a bye instead of having to play a match is just their lucky day.

Barbara

Well, I know I'm arguing with a skilled and successful tournament director here, but I don't like this solution. I know you were there at WPBA Valley Forge (1999, I think) when travel problems caused Jennifer Chen to be late for her first round match, and she lost by forfeit. She was not, however, forfeited out of the event, instead being forced to begin her play on the loser's side. I think that's the fair way to handle it when entry fees have been prepaid.

 

[Deno J. Andrews]

If you are going to use a clock, you need to have the conviction to stick with what it means. If both players don't show up, they should both be eliminated from the tournament. I have run hundreds of tournaments both large and small and am strict on time because tournaments are difficult to schedule. I have only ever had one match where both players were late. In my tournament, it was Round Robin, so I gave them both a loss with zero points (these are carom tournaments). However, in a D.E. tournament there is no way to determine a winner or a loser, and they can't both go to the loser's bracket. The other solution is to give them both the loss but give them a free buy-back into the event if that is something your event already has in place.

Deno Andrews

 

[jjinfla]

If you called a forfeit on both players then yes they would both go to the loser's side. Then you can flip a coin as to which of the two would be out of the tournament and which one would take the spot on the brackets on the losers side.

Or, you can put them both on the losers side and if one comes in before the 2nd clock runs out he gets the spot and the other is eliminated. if they both come in before the 2nd clock runs out then flip a coin.

Or, since one guy came in right after you called a forfeit you can move him to the winners side and the other one to the losers side.

I don't think that moving both to the losers side and then flipping a coin to eliminate one of them when one of them is there should be a choice. You should wait for the 2nd clock to run.

And it depends on how big the tournament is and how much money is involved and how you get along with the players. If it's a pool hall tournament then the main idea is to get people in the place to spend money so you really shouldn't be getting anyone mad at the owner.

Jake

 

[Side Pocket Kid]

Everyone has their own system of running tournaments, and everyone gets that all you guys have huge experience in running them. So both were late, what if the guy didn't walk in immediately after the 15 minute rule. What if he walked in 5 minutes later? What if one of them walked in 10 minutes later and the other walked in 20 seconds after him? I say while he was begging for the win, you should of gave him the finger and put him in the losers bracket. If no one was present at the time you called them, then no one gets the win. Both were late, both lose.
Either that, or you take a 10 dollar bribe and give him a win.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Only problem is that losers will keep on buying in, and late risers would skip rounds like having bye's. If you do allow buy-back you have to limit it.

Not if you arrange it right:

Have the preliminary play in single-elimination groups of 8. If you win your group of 8, you go into the finals. If you finish second in your group of 8, you get your entry fee back. The seven losers in each group of 8 can buy back in to another preliminary group of 8.

You can either set a time limit on buy-backs or fill up a tournament chart. For example, if you limit total entries to 128, you will fill up a 16-player chart for the single-elimination finals. If you set the cut-off for buy-backs by time, and you don't fill a 16-player chart (for example), give byes to the first players who won their groups of 8. This puts a premium on showing up early.

I like the buy-back format much better than double elimination.

Of course, I said "groups of 8" as an example. It could be 4 or 16 depending on the situation. Similarly for the 16-player finals. If you only have 64 total entries, you should limit it to an 8-player finals.

I've seen one persistent player in this format enter 7 times at $20 a pop. Fortunately for him, he finished 4th in the finals and got $250 back.

Note that you can set the entry fee at about half of what it would be for a double-elimination tournament and you'll still end up with about the same total entry fees.