Digicue Blue. Guys are Afraid to Know?

[nataddrho]

Straight, as in, minimal vertical deviation from a straight line?

Obviously one would not expect that result based on the practice strokes but I will not dispute objective data.

The DigiCue is continuously acquiring accelerometer and gyroscope samples at a sample rate of 104Hz. When the algorithm detects a ball impact event, it sets a timer. When the timer expires, it freezes the acquisition and looks back at the snapshot of the cue motion before and after impact. The furthest back in time observed is for analysis of the backstroke pause. Data from practice strokes before this have already been over-written.

Straightness/Steering is measured in a range of 5-50ms before impact and looks for radial forces applied during this time... very quick.
Jab looks for a negative axial force during this 5-50ms window.
Follow Through measures how the cue re-accelerates, and not the actual distance the cue pushes through the bridge hand. Through the two are related.
And etc.

Since the device uses a MEMs inertial momentum chip coupled directly to the cue, it has a sensitivity beyond the effective photodiode pixel width of a common video camera.

The app takes all of this information and tries to simplify it by making a bar chart, with "good" and "bad" for the layman, based on the selected settings.

 

[tomker]

...
Straightness/Steering is measured in a range of 5-50ms before impact and looks for radial forces applied during this time... very quick.
Jab looks for a negative axial force during this 5-50ms window.
Follow Through measures how the cue re-accelerates, and not the actual distance the cue pushes through the bridge hand. Through the two are related.
And etc.
...

Okay, so when you say that top players with goofy strokes are still hitting the ball straight, that means no (minimal) radial deviation for the 50ms up until impact?

So basically no twisting action of the cue? Interesting. I would have expected you to calculate deviation on the horizontal and vertical axes.

 

[nataddrho]

Okay, so when you say that top players with goofy strokes are still hitting the ball straight, that means no (minimal) radial deviation for the 50ms up until impact?

So basically no twisting action of the cue? Interesting. I would have expected you to calculate deviation on the horizontal and vertical axes.

Yes, I am measuring X and Y. This is radial. Axial would be Z. Accelerometer would be linear force, and gyroscope would be "twisting".

 

[lfigueroa]

Did you have a better view than me when I was examining zoomed-in footage on YouTube frame-by-frame? LOL.

Probably.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Well, Lou said "As I understand your measurements I would not agree with your assessment of how they would score." I offered to send him a DigiCue free of charge so that he could better understand the measurements. He declined.

So he doesn't want to understand the measurements, but wants to continue to complain anyway, even though he said he is all for tech.

There is no complaint, lol.

Just responding to being recently quoted in a long dead thread.

And oh BTW not all “tech” is created equal. I’d also comment that your unfounded allegations do not show you to be much of a logical, scientific kinda guy.

Lou Figueroa
Beetlejuice,
Beetlejuice….

 

[tomker]

There is no complaint, lol.

No. You're not complaining. You're just pointing out that there's no proof that the device improves a person's stroke, or a person's game, or that if a person's stroke improves that will also improve his game, etc. etc. etc.

Despite the fact that you haven't used the device and you don't have any actual reason to doubt its efficacy.

Just responding to being recently quoted in a long dead thread.

And oh BTW not all “tech” is created equal.

Hence the offer to let you evaluate the tech free of charge. Which you declined. Guess you're not as into tech as you claimed.

 

[lfigueroa]

No. You're not complaining. You're just pointing out that there's no proof that the device improves a person's stroke, or a person's game, or that if a person's stroke improves that will also improve his game, etc. etc. etc.

Despite the fact that you haven't used the device and you don't have any actual reason to doubt its efficacy.


Hence the offer to let you evaluate the tech free of charge. Which you declined. Guess you're not as into tech as you claimed.

Well, is there evidence?

And I will say again, since you apparently missed it first time around: not all tech is created equal. You can see all kinds of tech proffered for sale online and on TV. Doesn’t mean any particular product is worth squadousch.

I like tech as much as the next guy but that doesn’t mean I’m willing to go all Tin Cup, lol.

Lou Figueroa

 

[straightline]

One thing that bothers me about stuff like this is industrial privacy. From hi fi to cordless phones on, you're buying leaks.

 

[tomker]

Well, is there evidence?

And I will say again, since you apparently missed it first time around: not all tech is created equal. You can see all kinds of tech proffered for sale online and on TV. Doesn’t mean any particular product is worth squadousch.
...

Right, but why shit on this product in particular? Do you shit on all products for no reason?

 

[lfigueroa]

Right, but why shit on this product in particular? Do you shit on all products for no reason?

As I've said a couple of times now I got sucked into this discussion when a five year old thread was reignited and you asked me a direct question on something I'd even forgotten I had written many years ago:

#####
It’s a simple question: what proof is there that any feedback from this device leads to better/improved play?
If I work on stroking into a bottle (yes I know it’s different but still a valid analogy) is there any proof that or the machine leads to higher runs, better shot making, improved position play and so on?
#####

Since them you've made all kinds of personal accusations pointed at me, including this last insinuation.

Perhaps if you didn't want my opinion, or just can't take the heat, you should not have asked for it a few days ago, no?

Lou Figueroa

 

[tomker]

...
Since them you've made all kinds of personal accusations pointed at me, including this last insinuation.

Perhaps if you didn't want my opinion, or just can't take the heat, you should not have asked for it a few days ago, no?
...

You think it's a perfectly innocent thing to do, to ask for proof that a training device is effective.

For many products, this would be a reasonable request. If a car manufacturer claims that a car is fast, you could expect proof in the form in independently-measured 0-60 times. If a TV manufacturer says their TV displays a good picture, you could expect proof in the form of objective measurements of color accuracy.

For a pool training gadget, there is obviously not going to be any proof that it works. There's no objective PROOF that ANYTHING helps a person's pool game. Asking for proof is unreasonable. The only reason you would do it is to call into question the efficacy of the device... for what purpose?

I could ask for proof that you're not ugly and smelly. And of course you can't take offense, because, hey, just asking for proof! It's perfectly valid for anybody to ask for proof of anything, right?

 

[lfigueroa]

You think it's a perfectly innocent thing to do, to ask for proof that a training device is effective.

For many products, this would be a reasonable request. If a car manufacturer claims that a car is fast, you could expect proof in the form in independently-measured 0-60 times. If a TV manufacturer says their TV displays a good picture, you could expect proof in the form of objective measurements of color accuracy.

For a pool training gadget, there is obviously not going to be any proof that it works. There's no objective PROOF that ANYTHING helps a person's pool game. Asking for proof is unreasonable. The only reason you would do it is to call into question the efficacy of the device... for what purpose?

I could ask for proof that you're not ugly and smelly. And of course you can't take offense, because, hey, just asking for proof! It's perfectly valid for anybody to ask for proof of anything, right?

So fine.

You have no proof it will help your game.

Lou Figueroa
talk about burying
the headline

 

[tomker]

So fine.

You have no proof it will help your game.
...

Yes, good job with reading comprehension. I've said exactly that several times but if you feel the need to parrot it back to me while missing the point of everything else I've written, fine.

Let me ask you a question that I've been curious about from the outset.

Have you ever given another pool player feedback about his stroke? Like, "you're not following through" or "you're popping up" or "you're chicken-winging" etc.?

I assume you have. Even though you have no proof that such feedback will help anybody be a better player.

All this device does is give a person the same sort of feedback. So it seems like you're asking for proof that a particular thing is helpful, when I assume you do exactly the same thing yourself because you already believe it's helpful. So do you think this sort of feedback is helpful or not?

 

[nataddrho]

One thing that bothers me about stuff like this is industrial privacy. From hi fi to cordless phones on, you're buying leaks.

I am too dumb to know how to capture user's information on purpose. I only know how to make electronic hardware and basic software.

 

[lfigueroa]

Yes, good job with reading comprehension. I've said exactly that several times but if you feel the need to parrot it back to me while missing the point of everything else I've written, fine.

Let me ask you a question that I've been curious about from the outset.

Have you ever given another pool player feedback about his stroke? Like, "you're not following through" or "you're popping up" or "you're chicken-winging" etc.?

I assume you have. Even though you have no proof that such feedback will help anybody be a better player.

All this device does is give a person the same sort of feedback. So it seems like you're asking for proof that a particular thing is helpful, when I assume you do exactly the same thing yourself because you already believe it's helpful. So do you think this sort of feedback is helpful or not?

Yes and no.

Broadly speaking, I do not give advice because when you do that folks tend to listen avidly in the moment and then eventually go back to what they were doing before. They try and do what you've told them but a week or two later they're back in their own way so nowadays I don't bother.

I do have a good friend who is an avid player and I do give him pointers from time to time. Some he adopts, others he does not.

Lou Figueroa

 

[straightline]

I am too dumb to know how to capture user's information on purpose. I only know how to make electronic hardware and basic software.

Touchy subject but tech is very much an "if it is, it leaks" kind of genre. lol...

 

[tomker]

Yes and no.

Broadly speaking, I do not give advice because when you do that folks tend to listen avidly in the moment and then eventually go back to what they were doing before. They try and do what you've told them but a week or two later they're back in their own way so nowadays I don't bother.

I do have a good friend who is an avid player and I do give him pointers from time to time. Some he adopts, others he does not.
...

Okay. So that's what this device does, is give that sort of feedback, which you obviously think is helpful (or at least can be helpful) or you wouldn't give feedback to your friend.

 

[tomker]

Touchy subject but tech is very much an "if it is, it leaks" kind of genre. lol...

I've now used the device and its associated app. The app doesn't ask for any personal information. There is an "Account" feature (which I haven't used) which claims that it can store your shot data online. That's optional, and it seems like the worst that could happen, if you use it, is that somebody might find out how well you can stroke a cue. Even if that data were valuable, I'm not sure how anybody would associate the data with anybody specific. So I'm not sure what you're worried about re: leaks, but I can't imagine that this app leaks any data anywhere, and even if it did, the worst-case scenario is... not bad.

 

[nataddrho]

I've now used the device and its associated app. The app doesn't ask for any personal information. There is an "Account" feature (which I haven't used) which claims that it can store your shot data online. That's optional, and it seems like the worst that could happen, if you use it, is that somebody might find out how well you can stroke a cue. Even if that data were valuable, I'm not sure how anybody would associate the data with anybody specific. So I'm not sure what you're worried about re: leaks, but I can't imagine that this app leaks any data anywhere, and even if it did, the worst-case scenario is... not bad.

All shot data is stored in a local file, which you can share to yourself. This isn't user information. In order to collect user information, when you release an app you need to first add a permission framework to your code, and then it needs to be configured by Apple/Google. Then in order for it to collect data at all, the app must prompt the user for permission and the user must agree. The permission alert description is reviewed by the moderators to make sure it is very clear what it is doing.

I didn't add any of this to the app. I still needed to include a privacy policy which states that no user information is collected.

So any information that is collected would be through the phone itself, or third part malware, which would be a violation of the federal Consumer Privacy Act:

CCPA compliance considerations for mobile app developers include:

Data collection: Under CCPA, you must inform users about the categories of personal information collected and the purposes for collection. This information should be provided in your privacy policy and easily accessible within your app.

User consent: CCPA requires obtaining explicit consent from users before collecting or sharing their personal information. Your app should provide clear opt-in mechanisms and allow users to easily revoke consent.

User rights: CCPA grants users the right to access, delete, and opt-out of the sale of their personal information. Your app must have systems in place to facilitate these requests and respond within the specified timeframes.

You are free to be skeptical or conspirical (made up word) of what Apple / Google are still doing behind the scenes outside of my control.

As for the DigiCue device itself, I personally guarantee you there are no hidden microphones or blood composition profilers or military-resolution GPS receivers or Iridium satellites that all work together as a system to identify possible terrorist activ:::: ACCOUNT DELETED.

 

[straightline]

I've now used the device and its associated app. The app doesn't ask for any personal information. There is an "Account" feature (which I haven't used) which claims that it can store your shot data online. That's optional, and it seems like the worst that could happen, if you use it, is that somebody might find out how well you can stroke a cue. Even if that data were valuable, I'm not sure how anybody would associate the data with anybody specific. So I'm not sure what you're worried about re: leaks, but I can't imagine that this app leaks any data anywhere, and even if it did, the worst-case scenario is... not bad.

It's not the personal info in this case. It's the telemetry on how you hit the ball. If that info is constructive to you, it can easily be used destructively by the opposition.