Do drunks rule pool?

Donny Lutz

Donny Lutz

Ferrule Cat
Silver Member
I clearly understand that selling alcoholic beverages is vital to the economic success of most billiard establishments.

But sadly, it seems more and more that drunks rule the world of pool at the local level. By this I mean that owners will do crazy things and accept outrageous behavior to keep the heavy drinkers coming.
I could give you numerous examples of players who repeatedly cause arguments and actually start fist fights in pool halls, yet when asked about banning these troublemakers, the owners refuse, with the lame excuse, "I need their business."
It even goes so far as the drunks telling the owners how to run their business, - leagues, tournaments, hiring, etc. Yes, I've actually heard owners reject suggestions from customers because they "don't spend enough money to have a say"!!!
They cater to drunks by turning the juke box up to ear-splitting levels and refuse to maintain their tables saying, "my best customers don't care about the table conditions"!

I know many players who have quit playing altogether because of this phenomenon.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 
Donny Lutz said:
I clearly understand that selling alcoholic beverages is vital to the economic success of most billiard establishments.

But sadly, it seems more and more that drunks rule the world of pool at the local level. By this I mean that owners will do crazy things and accept outrageous behavior to keep the heavy drinkers coming.
I could give you numerous examples of players who repeatedly cause arguments and actually start fist fights in pool halls, yet when asked about banning these troublemakers, the owners refuse, with the lame excuse, "I need their business."
It even goes so far as the drunks telling the owners how to run their business, - leagues, tournaments, hiring, etc. Yes, I've actually heard owners reject suggestions from customers because they "don't spend enough money to have a say"!!!
They cater to drunks by turning the juke box up to ear-splitting levels and refuse to maintain their tables saying, "my best customers don't care about the table conditions"!

I know many players who have quit playing altogether because of this phenomenon.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Click to expand...

The best a player can hope for in 99.0% of the rooms is a pool room during the day and a drinking spot at night. Those that want an old fashioned pool room day and night will wind up with NO Pool Hall. As for the tables and everything else, an owner should keep them clean NO MATTER what he thinks the customers want. I wouldnt listen to anything a non spending customer says either. Why would i want a roomful of them? If i got them as before, no more pool room.
 
Donny Lutz said:
I clearly understand that selling alcoholic beverages is vital to the economic success of most billiard establishments.

But sadly, it seems more and more that drunks rule the world of pool at the local level. By this I mean that owners will do crazy things and accept outrageous behavior to keep the heavy drinkers coming.
I could give you numerous examples of players who repeatedly cause arguments and actually start fist fights in pool halls, yet when asked about banning these troublemakers, the owners refuse, with the lame excuse, "I need their business."
It even goes so far as the drunks telling the owners how to run their business, - leagues, tournaments, hiring, etc. Yes, I've actually heard owners reject suggestions from customers because they "don't spend enough money to have a say"!!!
They cater to drunks by turning the juke box up to ear-splitting levels and refuse to maintain their tables saying, "my best customers don't care about the table conditions"!

I know many players who have quit playing altogether because of this phenomenon.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Click to expand...

This sounds like a typical shortsighted room owner who will eventually close the doors because he was too dumb to realize how much business was being turned away by his "best" cutomers. They can thrive for a while if there's a lack of competition in their area.
 
Donny Lutz said:
I clearly understand that selling alcoholic beverages is vital to the economic success of most billiard establishments.

But sadly, it seems more and more that drunks rule the world of pool at the local level. By this I mean that owners will do crazy things and accept outrageous behavior to keep the heavy drinkers coming.
I could give you numerous examples of players who repeatedly cause arguments and actually start fist fights in pool halls, yet when asked about banning these troublemakers, the owners refuse, with the lame excuse, "I need their business."
It even goes so far as the drunks telling the owners how to run their business, - leagues, tournaments, hiring, etc. Yes, I've actually heard owners reject suggestions from customers because they "don't spend enough money to have a say"!!!
They cater to drunks by turning the juke box up to ear-splitting levels and refuse to maintain their tables saying, "my best customers don't care about the table conditions"!

I know many players who have quit playing altogether because of this phenomenon.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Click to expand...
It depends on whether it is a "Bar with pool tables", or a "Pool room that sell beer". A pool room that sells beer is not usually a place where people come to just sit and get drunk. I have owned both and I can tell you, a pool room that sells beer is no more a place to just come get drunk then a restaurant with a wine list. People come to play pool and many adults don't want a Coca Cola they want a cold beer after coming in from work or playing golf or what ever. The pool room I had I put in the beer license, it didn't have one when I bought it. I didn't even build a sit down bar, just a service bar.

I had seating where people would sit as they waited for a pool table but few if any came in just to sit and drink. The whole environment and atmosphere did not cater to drinking but playing pool. The simple fact is, the service of alcohol augments the pool room business, they go hand in hand. You profit in two ways. One, many will come in to play pool and want a beer so they come to you. Second and I experienced this before having a license. Without a the beer they would come in and play for a short time and you would overhear them talking about now heading out to a nearby bar for a few beers before going home.

When I put in the beer they would stay all night and the combination of bar tab and pool time would often be 4 times what they would have normally spent. Beer + added table time because they don't leave = $$$$$$$$$. Like it of not, admit it or not, they are the ones that keep the pool room open for the more hard core players, period. Without them, you have no pool room to play in at all. Not to mention, it makes the whole business viable.
I would not invest 5 cents in a pool room without a beverage license and I doubt many others on here would either.
 
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There's some cliche that applies here about how people who get good service tell a few people, but when they get bad service they tell a lot of people

One guy you've never seen walks off the street and complains, you could probably ignore it. Regular, frequent customers say something about the state of things, if you care at all about customer service you should listen to them, regardless of how much they spend. Why? Because they tell their friends who all go somewhere else.

There are certainly no guarantees in life but providing bad customer service is definitely not a way to grow.
 
Non-spending customer?

Nostroke said:
The best a player can hope for in 99.0% of the rooms is a pool room during the day and a drinking spot at night. Those that want an old fashioned pool room day and night will wind up with NO Pool Hall. As for the tables and everything else, an owner should keep them clean NO MATTER what he thinks the customers want. I wouldnt listen to anything a non spending customer says either. Why would i want a roomful of them? If i got them as before, no more pool room.
Click to expand...

Are you possibly confusing non-drinking alcohol with non-spending? If you're a "customer", aren't you by definition spending money in the establishment?

Folks who choose not to drink alcohol do spend money, - on food, soft drinks, table time, cues, cases, etc. Also, non-drinkers play on teams with drinkers and often bring in family and friends who spend money.
If my pool team includes drinkers and non-drinkers, should the owner make it clear that he'll listen to suggestions from the drinkers, but not the non-drinkers?

Sounds like your ideal pool hall might have a sign on the front door saying, "BIG SPENDERS ONLY"!

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 
Donny Lutz said:
Are you possibly confusing non-drinking alcohol with non-spending? If you're a "customer", aren't you by definition spending money in the establishment?

Folks who choose not to drink alcohol do spend money, - on food, soft drinks, table time, cues, cases, etc. Also, non-drinkers play on teams with drinkers and often bring in family and friends who spend money.
If my pool team includes drinkers and non-drinkers, should the owner make it clear that he'll listen to suggestions from the drinkers, but not the non-drinkers?

Sounds like your ideal pool hall might have a sign on the front door saying, "BIG SPENDERS ONLY"!

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Click to expand...

reading comprehension is not your strong suit-bang some balls.
 
krupa said:
There's some cliche that applies here about how people who get good service tell a few people, but when they get bad service they tell a lot of people

One guy you've never seen walks off the street and complains, you could probably ignore it. Regular, frequent customers say something about the state of things, if you care at all about customer service you should listen to them, regardless of how much they spend. Why? Because they tell their friends who all go somewhere else.

There are certainly no guarantees in life but providing bad customer service is definitely not a way to grow.
Click to expand...
I think what you are saying is, the place will be what the owner chooses it to be. A dump full of drunks, or a nice pool room where you can have a cold beer while you are playing.
 
Donny Lutz said:
Are you possibly confusing non-drinking alcohol with non-spending? If you're a "customer", aren't you by definition spending money in the establishment?

Folks who choose not to drink alcohol do spend money, - on food, soft drinks, table time, cues, cases, etc. Also, non-drinkers play on teams with drinkers and often bring in family and friends who spend money.
If my pool team includes drinkers and non-drinkers, should the owner make it clear that he'll listen to suggestions from the drinkers, but not the non-drinkers?

Sounds like your ideal pool hall might have a sign on the front door saying, "BIG SPENDERS ONLY"!

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Click to expand...

So given a choice would you rather have just a pool room barely scrapping by? Or one that sells beer, has a nice bottom line that you can reinvest into the place to make it a great place for all to come and play? I am afraid the jury in no longer out on this issue, few if any would even consider opening a room with out a beverage license. That is just a fact. How the room is run is up to the owner regardless of a beverage license or not.

Years ago few pool rooms had beverage licenses, in many cities it was actually not legal. Remember what those small hole in the wall pool rooms where like back then? They were for the most part not a place you took a date and were often in the worst parts of town where overhead was cheap. I takes money to operate a nice room. Today's modern full service rooms have taken the game out of the back alley rooms where many on here grew up playing in and straight into the main stream public.
Yes, they will tell stories of the colorful characters and goings on in these rooms and long for the old days, but the truth is, these rooms did little to further the sport. When Brunswick put 20 and 30 table well lit rooms in their bowling alleys everything changed. And yes, most of those Brunswick rooms in the bowling alleys you could get a waitress serve you a beer right at your table just like you could down at the alleys.
 
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80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your customers. Those 20% call the shots. If they want bagpipe music then you hire a bagpipe player.

Like it or not, the biggest spending customers have the biggest say in how a business runs.

If there was a market for "serious" pool halls, we'd see lots of them. I live in a good-sized city and I don't think we've got even one. Actually I don't see how a pool table pays for itself in almost any environment... given that an 7-foot table occupies 180 square feet. The same square footage can comfortably accommodate 16 people who are eating and drinking.

Added:

I thought the math was so obvious that I didn't need to spell it out...but apparently not...so here it is:

7 foot table with 4 foot clearance on all four sides

7 + 4 + 4 = 15
4 + 4+ 4 = 12

15 x 12 = 180 square feet

I guess you could assume that you don't need any clearance around the table, in which case you're only taking up 28 square feet, but I doubt many people would want to play in that pool hall.
 
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Missing the point.

macguy said:
So given a choice would you rather have just a pool room barely scrapping by? Or one that sells beer, has a nice bottom line that you can reinvest into the place to make it a great place for all to come and play? I am afraid the jury in no longer out on this issue, few if any would even consider opening a room with out a beverage license. That is just a fact. How the room is run is up to the owner regardless of a beverage license or not.

Years ago few pool rooms had beverage licenses, in many cities it was actually not legal. Remember what those small hole in the wall pool rooms where like back then? They were for the most part not a place you took a date and were often in the worst parts of town where overhead was cheap. I takes money to operate a nice room. Today's modern full service rooms have taken the game out of the back alley rooms where many on here grew up playing in and straight into the main stream public.
Yes, they will tell stories of the colorful characters and goings on in these rooms and long for the old days, but the truth is, these rooms did little to further the sport. When Brunswick put 20 and 30 table well lit rooms in their bowling alleys everything changed. And yes, most of those Brunswick rooms in the bowling alleys you could get a waitress serve you a beer right at your table just like you could down at the alleys.
Click to expand...

Wow, didn't expect the insults and negative reactions. My original post regarded people who cause serious problems in pool halls being allowed to continue because they are big spenders.
I'm not for prohibition or against profit.
It's that I don't think that folks who get drunk and love to argue and fight should be the ones who dictate how a place is run.
If I owned a billiard center, anyone who repeatedly causes problems, particularly if they engage in violence, would be banned, -if not permanently at least for a period of time to allow them to grow up.

By the way, I've been playing in bars, pool halls, bowling alleys and in sixteen national events since 1955. I've managed and/or served as resident instructor/league director in six different establishments. Five of them did well when I was there, then closed after I left. Maybe when I have a few more years in, my opinion will be respected, do ya think?

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 
bdorman said:
80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your customers. Those 20% call the shots. If they want bagpipe music then you hire a bagpipe player.

Like it or not, the biggest spending customers have the biggest say in how a business runs.

If there was a market for "serious" pool halls, we'd see lots of them. I live in a good-sized city and I don't think we've got even one. Actually I don't see how a pool table pays for itself in almost any environment... given that an 7-foot table occupies 180 square feet. The same square footage can comfortably accommodate 16 people who are eating and drinking.
Click to expand...
Where do you get that figure? My experience in the pool room business is it is pretty much equally spread. You have the everyday player who spends say $70.00 a week and you have the ones who may just come in on weekends and spends their $70.00. The one thing that always stands out are the players who are there everyday ands spend very little.

The thing is, they also add to the place in that they are warm bodies in the place. No one wants to go to an empty place. They may have friends that come in just because they are there. If thy are known players they may add to the atmosphere and others will come in just because they play there. "ALL" customers as long as they are not causing any trouble are of value.

One of my most interesting memories was visiting a room when I was running around. I was in the place in the afternoon and no one was there, not one person. I asked if it was busier at night and the girl working there said, "sometimes". I got my answer to what was wrong with the room as I left. Over the door was a sign that said,

"If you have nothing to do, don't do it here".

Another pool room owner that should be in different business. You can't be in a business where you hate your customers.
 
Donny Lutz said:
Wow, didn't expect the insults and negative reactions. My original post regarded people who cause serious problems in pool halls being allowed to continue because they are big spenders.
I'm not for prohibition or against profit.
It's that I don't think that folks who get drunk and love to argue and fight should be the ones who dictate how a place is run.
If I owned a billiard center, anyone who repeatedly causes problems, particularly if they engage in violence, would be banned, -if not permanently at least for a period of time to allow them to grow up.

By the way, I've been playing in bars, pool halls, bowling alleys and in sixteen national events since 1955. I've managed and/or served as resident instructor/league director in six different establishments. Five of them did well when I was there, then closed after I left. Maybe when I have a few more years in, my opinion will be respected, do ya think?

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Click to expand...

You are only pointing out the obvious, that a place where the owner runs a bad room is a pain to go to, no one would disagree with that. If drunks are fighting and nothing is done that reflects on that one place not the overall industry as a whole. Sounds like you had or are having a bad experience and other then just not go there there is not much you can do. I think very few owners would allow a bunch of drunks to tell them how to run their place no matter how much they spent.

I once had a bunch of Gypsies coming in. They would take all the tables, sometimes intimidating people to quit so they could have the table. They would order beers 20 or 30 at a time and buy pack after pack of cigarettes. They would spend a thousand in just a few hours. It took me like 4 nights before throw them all out and told them to not come back. It is not always about money. They threaten me and I was carrying not one but two guns for the next month. I carry a gun all the time anyway but I was extra cautious around that time. Business owners don't let people come in and tell them how they are going to run their business.

You know, we are all on the same page here, we all want the sport to survive and maybe even thrive. You can find a lot wrong if you look, but you can also find a lot being done right. There are a lot of good responsible room owners all over the country. Most didn't go into the business because they thought it was a gold mine, they like the game and enjoy being around it. I dare say there are many rooms that should have closed long ago if it was just about money. A lot of owners as long as they stay in the black keep on going and we have places to play but few are getting rich.
 
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Donny Lutz said:
I clearly understand that selling alcoholic beverages is vital to the economic success of most billiard establishments.

But sadly, it seems more and more that drunks rule the world of pool at the local level. By this I mean that owners will do crazy things and accept outrageous behavior to keep the heavy drinkers coming.
I could give you numerous examples of players who repeatedly cause arguments and actually start fist fights in pool halls, yet when asked about banning these troublemakers, the owners refuse, with the lame excuse, "I need their business."
It even goes so far as the drunks telling the owners how to run their business, - leagues, tournaments, hiring, etc. Yes, I've actually heard owners reject suggestions from customers because they "don't spend enough money to have a say"!!!
They cater to drunks by turning the juke box up to ear-splitting levels and refuse to maintain their tables saying, "my best customers don't care about the table conditions"!

I know many players who have quit playing altogether because of this phenomenon.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Click to expand...

I have found that life is too short {and that stress can sometimes make you very ill} to allow things I can't change to bother me.
The owner has let everyone know where he stands, so if you are displeased, my recommendation is to go elsewhere, {hopefully you have a choice} and if the new place is better , let all the people you like, know about it!
Just ask them not to tell the drunks!
 
My friend owned several Pool Rooms, and Bars in Flagstaff & Phoenix Metro Area, all served Beer & Wine, and the Bars Hard Liquor.

My friend failed, or closed all venues because the effort, did not justify the dismal profits of the businesses. Why bust you butt for pennies per hour spend operating business.

He also stated very vocally in the Bars the booze paid the bills, not the Quarters in the Bar boxes. He catered to Recreational Pool Player, not the "A" Players who did not consume alcohol. If you want to have a successful Bar be prepared to deal with Alcoholics, and Drunks they pay your bills.

IMHO today with the cost of operating an Pool Business, be it Bar with Pool Tables, Sports Bar with Pool Tables, or Pool Room at a minimum you have to have BOTTLE BEER to pay your bill. Bottle beer is easier to keep track of than dealing with the problem associated with draft beer, and shrinkage.

The days of places like North Hollywood Billiards, in North Hollywood, CA that survived on Pool without any alcohol sales, and is now closed are part of Pool history. IMHO


Recently a fellow in Arizona tried a Pool Room with Coffee, and Non Alcoholic Drinks. The place was called SWEET TOOTH BILLIARDS, if I recall correctly. They had Diamond Tables also. Lets be diplomatic and say the business Plan did not fly..THE BUSINESS IS NOW....CLOSED.
 
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In no way do I mean this to sound like im cutting you up, this is just my personal opinion on things as a bar/hall owner.... No, I dont feel a few more years will get you any more respect at all, nor should it. It has always irked me when seasoned citizens feel they deserve more respect just because of how long they have been fortunate to have been on this earth. You receive more respect for your deeds and actions, not for simply putting time in. If youve done things in your 55 years to get respect, fine, and im sure people have given it to you for doing so... The ironic thing is that your 55 years in, is probably more of a hindrance than a help for you on this one. Times have changed, its as simple as that. Theres a reason there are very few, if any, "pool halls" around anymore, and the ones that are around almost always sell alcohol. They have to pay the bills and keep the doors open.. If I listened to all the advice my non-drinking patrons gave me as to how I should run my place, I'd be out of business in a month! I have the best equipment around my area (Diamond Smart tables, Aramith Super Pro Balls, Pro Shop with everything a player could need for sale), and keep it in tip top shape (Diamond double ball cleaner/polisher that we use 3 times a week for the balls, tables cleaned off 3 times a week, reclothed with Simonis twice a year, new balls once a year, new house cues, Delta 13 racks on each table, ect..). And its all paid for by the drunks who play the jukebox you despise so much. It aint the hard core players who come in and drink a soda or water every few hours and then still complain about the price of it that pay my bills and keep everything first class, trust me.. Put a table in your house if you dont already have one and stay home and play, or go open your own hall and run it the way you want to (you wont last very long if your gonna rely on profit to stay open bro...)..
 
bdorman said:
Actually I don't see how a pool table pays for itself in almost any environment... given that an 7-foot table occupies 180 square feet.
Click to expand...

:confused:That one threw me but there are exactly three people here who repeatedly accuse me of having a reading comprehension problem.
 
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macguy said:
I got my answer to what was wrong with the room as I left. Over the door was a sign that said,

"If you have nothing to do, don't do it here".

Another pool room owner that should be in different business. You can't be in a business where you hate your customers.
Click to expand...

That's a classic.
 
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