Do the facts not matter?

W

wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it just me or are the responses weird?
I was reading the thread on Danny Harriman and his problems with the UPA. He explains why he quit a match with Duell while he was getting trounced and his frustrations that led up to this. In the responses people state that "the UPA is fully responsible", "UPA is doing wrong", "dysfunctional organization that can't manage their finances" "Upa owes him the money" "shame on the UPA for bothering a player during a tournament" "perhaps felt he would be physically harmed" "pitiful attempt at a union".
The fact is Behrman stiffed him not the UPA. The fact is he owed his $100 membership fee to remain part of that group and it sounds like he didn't want to pay it. I don't know how many others Behrman stiffed but wouldn't it make more sense to attack him and take action to make him pay up rather than passing the blame to an organization that is trying to prevent this from happening? Or did the UPA make a promise to cover for Behrman if he didn't pay?
Maybe someone has some better facts instead of weird speculations.

Wayne
 
wayne said:
Is it just me or are the responses weird?
I was reading the thread on Danny Harriman and his problems with the UPA. He explains why he quit a match with Duell while he was getting trounced and his frustrations that led up to this. In the responses people state that "the UPA is fully responsible", "UPA is doing wrong", "dysfunctional organization that can't manage their finances" "Upa owes him the money" "shame on the UPA for bothering a player during a tournament" "perhaps felt he would be physically harmed" "pitiful attempt at a union".
The fact is Behrman stiffed him not the UPA. The fact is he owed his $100 membership fee to remain part of that group and it sounds like he didn't want to pay it. I don't know how many others Behrman stiffed but wouldn't it make more sense to attack him and take action to make him pay up rather than passing the blame to an organization that is trying to prevent this from happening? Or did the UPA make a promise to cover for Behrman if he didn't pay?
Maybe someone has some better facts instead of weird speculations.

Wayne
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Wayne,
In the thread you are referring to, I fail to see any speculation. The probelms players have had with the UPA and their executive board are well documented. My advice to you is to call the UPA to hear what they have to say about it. Play telephone tag with every member of their executive board until you start banging your head against the wall trying to get a straight answer from anybody. That is the major problem with the UPA.

At the 2001 US Open, the event was held during the tragic events of September 11, 2001. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why there wasn't much money at the event. That's not Barry Behrman's fault, anyone that says that it is - is an idiot. Barry had the option of folding up the tournament, or going on with it. IIRC ( I may be wrong) but the players decided to go through with the tournament. The tournament was a financial disaster, not because of Barry Behrman, but because of the events of 9/11. This is why Barry was not able to pay (for that event). It's not because he stiffed anybody. The UPA took the wrong approach when trying to get the players paid, and they have had a 3 year stand off.

In my opinion, the only thing the UPA has proved to the world of pool is that they can schedule their events to sabaotage and/or interfere with other events. This does nothing to further the sport, & its counter-productive. They will ignore players, sponsors, other tournament promoters, and fans when approached with questions about their decisions and their methods. Their info is on a "need to know" basis, and if you are not one of "them", they won't even talk to you. Knowing this from personal experience, and hearing Danny's explanation, I see nothing wrong with what he did. I believe that they wanted Danny's hundred bucks because they probably really really needed it - and it probably wasn't to help out the players.
 
wayne said:
Is it just me or are the responses weird?
I was reading the thread on Danny Harriman and his problems with the UPA. He explains why he quit a match with Duell while he was getting trounced and his frustrations that led up to this. In the responses people state that "the UPA is fully responsible", "UPA is doing wrong", "dysfunctional organization that can't manage their finances" "Upa owes him the money" "shame on the UPA for bothering a player during a tournament" "perhaps felt he would be physically harmed" "pitiful attempt at a union".
The fact is Behrman stiffed him not the UPA. The fact is he owed his $100 membership fee to remain part of that group and it sounds like he didn't want to pay it. I don't know how many others Behrman stiffed but wouldn't it make more sense to attack him and take action to make him pay up rather than passing the blame to an organization that is trying to prevent this from happening? Or did the UPA make a promise to cover for Behrman if he didn't pay?
Maybe someone has some better facts instead of weird speculations.

Wayne
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You know, Wayne, this really isn't such a simple matter, and the extent to whcih the UPA should be viewed as accountable here is very much a matter of opinion.

There are at least three basic ways that an organization can handle its finances with respect to the payment of prizes.

1) Collect a sanctioning fee in advance of the event, but make an arrangement whereby the sponsor is responsible, by contract, for the added money and the payment of the prizes when the tournament is completed.

2) Collect a sanctioning fee in advance of the event, but make an arrangement whereby the sponsor is responsible to place the added money in escrow prior to when the tournament is actually played.

3) collect a much larger sanctioning fee in advance of the event that permits the pro organization to pay the prizes out of its own general funds

In my opinion:

Approach one exposes the players to the creditworthiness and business ethics of the sponsor. Should either prove unsatisfactory, the players may be at financial risk. This has been the model for both UPA and the US Open 9-ball event.

Approach three appears airtight, but only if those who administer the treasury of the pro organization can be trusted.

Approach two is probably best, as the escrowing of the funds means that the prize money is accounted for even before a tournament begins.

Hence, the question at the crux of the matter is whether an organization, such as UPA, that exposes its players to financial loss because it follows approach one has acted irresponsibly. If so, it's difficult not to assign some of the blame to the UPA when players get burned. If not, then UPA deserves none of the blame.

As I said, this matter really isn't so simple.
 
Blackjack said:
At the 2001 US Open, the event was held during the tragic events of September 11, 2001. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why there wasn't much money at the event... The tournament was a financial disaster, not because of Barry Behrman, but because of the events of 9/11. This is why Barry was not able to pay (for that event). It's not because he stiffed anybody. The UPA took the wrong approach when trying to get the players paid, and they have had a 3 year stand off.
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Hi Blackjack: Do you have your facts straight or is Harriman confused? You mention the US Open and Barry Behrman and Harriman says it was the Masters and Brady Behrman that stiffed him.

Wayne
 
wayne said:
Hi Blackjack: Do you have your facts straight or is Harriman confused? You mention the US Open and Barry Behrman and Harriman says it was the Masters and Brady Behrman that stiffed him.

Wayne
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The 2001 was NOT sanctioned by the UPA I am pretty sure so the UPA has NO fault in any money that was not granted at that tournament.

The tournaments that Danny talked about not getting paid at WERE sanctioned by the UPA, this sanctioning requires by the UPA rules a minimum of added money by the tournament organizer and for the complete payouts to be put into escro. This is to protect the players and make sure they get paid. One of the MAJOR functions of the UPA sanctioning and their very mandate was to make SURE the money in tournaments was paid to the players and as such when they sanction an event they are giving it their seal of approval that their guidelines are followed and the players can be rest assured that the payouts are in escro and will be paid out. THAT is the whole reason the players pay for the UPA membership in the first place, it helps to pay the organization to do the paperwork and make sure the tournaments are run under the guidelines that protect the players. In Danny's case the UPA failed in the prime reason for their very existence, they failed to follow their own strict rules and assure that the money was in escro and would be paid out to the players who competed. In effect it is a lie for them to sanction an event that is in fact not following the rules of their sanctioning requirements and their membership who pays money for the protection and to play under their guidelines were defrauded as they simply did not get what they paid for and in fact were given false promises of the protection and security that is the sole reason the UPA exists.

The UPA Mission

To elevate the standards of the professional poolplayers' vocation,

enhance the economic well-being of the individual member,

stimulate interest and involvement from major media companies,

major advertisers, and the general public,

and to continually promote the overall vitality of the sport.

UPA Current Agenda

To provide unsurpassed levels of leadership, guidance, and organization that will benefit professional pool players in the United States through a published schedule of events complete with tournament promotion, guaranteed prize funds, and a fair and uniform ranking system
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Notice that 2nd mission. Now notice that "Guaranteed prize funds" in their agenda. This is what you pay the UPA your $100 for, that is the whole point. So when you play in a event that the UPA sanctions and gains control over by way of that event supposedly being required to follow UPA rules on payouts as seen by way of the UPA/Great White fiasco of last year where the UPA demanded $10,000 US added and for the money to be placed in escro in order for the event to be UPA sanctioned. It is obvious the UPA cut corners in this case of the two events that Danny played in, they broke their own rules and ignored their own mandate and by putting the UPA stamp of approval on those tournaments they negate their reasoning for the membership fee because that fee is paying for them to offer the very protection they did not. The players payed the UPA for a service and the UPA lied to them and did not follow through on the sevice in the slightest.
 
This all sounds to me like............

This all sounds to me like "Hustling Pool" is STILL the only way to make a decent buck.

TY & GL
 
wayne said:
Hi Blackjack: Do you have your facts straight or is Harriman confused? You mention the US Open and Barry Behrman and Harriman says it was the Masters and Brady Behrman that stiffed him.

Wayne
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I didnt stiff him. I do however make payments to Mr Harriman from My Mid-Atlantic event. I was also late on Paying Charlie, and Rodney Morris. This was my first "Major" tournament that unfortunatlely didnt pan out due to an Ice Storm, the same storm that hit the event that was held the following weekend in Atlantic City.

I found I was better off Helping my father with his event vs. trying to do large events myself.

My problems were NOT the UPA's Fault nor My dad. At the time of my event they were relatively new and they were hungry for events.

People often speculate, these are just some honest facts.

Thanks
Brady
 
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It was not about 09-11-01

Wayne I think you should Know that the upa as a whole is not a bad organization, but their lead rep. who got up in my face and demanded that I pay this membership fee is my complaint. Even though it is Brady Behrman that owes me from the Mid Atlantic tournament and not his Dad I dont much care for Berry either.I asked berry at the tourney in NY at the Grand Central Station if it would be possible to get Brady to pay $1500.00 and then that way I could use the other $500.00 towards my entry in the Open. I was sincere and told him that I would still like to play in the Open and felt this would be a nice offer, as his son has not paid me one red cent of the $2000.00. He told me that he had nothing to do with his sons business affairs and that I was only hurting myself by not playing in the Open, well where does that leave me I asked I spent 1100.00 going to that event. Berry then said "I dont care if you play in the Open or not your only hurting yourself", I told him that I didn't care about the winning the Open and that it was not the tournament it once was and all of the pros knew it. It is safe to say that the Bhermans' and I are not life long pardners.
Even though I dont agree with some of the things that Charlie Williams has promoted and or his strict ways of handling business he did play a role in helping mens pool as did berry behrman.
As far as 09-11-01 I do not think Berry was completely in the right for cutting the $ up like he did but it's just another solid reminder to me that the men have no protection against phony promoters. That was a tricky situation and I do not think there is a good answer for the circumstances that occured.
Charlie and Berry have both helped promote pool but I would have think that Charlie continues to do more for the game than berry by a long shot (i.e.) Dragon Promo.
 
I havent read this thread but here it goes.

The UPA's MAIN JOB IMHO is to ensure that the tournaments that they sanction have the added money in ESCROW to ensure that all the players that are paying a $100 UPA fee each year GET PAID.

DANNY H DIDN'T GET PAID!!!

Who cares who does what? The UPA ensures players gets paid, for this they CHARGE $100. DANNY DIDN'T GET PAID!!

Think of it like car insurance. I pay $2000 a year just so that if i have an accident, they will pay. So what if someone crashes into my car, and the insurance company refused to pay? Would i be happy? Who should i be pissed at? Just the guy that crashed into me? Doesn't matter that i paid the INSURANCE, that asshole that hit me is the one in the wrong? I'm pissed at both of em.



What is it you don't understand?
 
Danny Harriman said:
I was sincere and told him that I would still like to play in the Open and felt this would be a nice offer, as his son has not paid me one red cent of the $2000.00.
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Thanks for the complete response Danny, part of your quote is that Brady has not paid you one red cent but a few posts back Brady said he was making payments so it appears he is lying, the next time I see him posting something I am going to ask him about this or maybe he will read these posts and take the time to clarify exactly what he had done to make good or intends to do.

Wayne
 
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