Do these rules seem confusing to anyone ?

[Bob Jewett]

A massé shot leaving the kitchen and then returning is good--it touches the cloth beyond the kitchen.

Not necessarily.

 

[Fatboy]

I thought it had to touch a ball or rail outside of the kitchen.

Unless you masse the CB it will touch a rail or ball to get back into the kitchen.

 

[Fatboy]

Not necessarily.

That doesn’t count?

It’s a impractical shot and I’ve never seen it done, but if the CB crosses the line and comes back into the kitchen and makes a legal hit or pockets a OB, that’s not a good shot?

It’s a moot question. I can’t imagine it ever happening. But what’s the verdict?

Thanks Bob,

Eric

 

[MitchAlsup]

Not necessarily.

How can a massé return after leaving the kitchen without touching the cloth ?

What source of friction is used other than the cloth?

 

[Bob Jewett]

How can a massé return after leaving the kitchen without touching the cloth ?

What source of friction is used other than the cloth?

Oops, sorry. I read that as "cushion".

 

[Fatboy]

A body in motion will stay in motion until acted on by a outside force.

The spin put on the CB is that outside force, the latency of the friction on the cloth will draw the ball back into the kitchen

No foul.

Best
Fatboy

 

[Renegade_56]

This is my first time doing this so please bear with me, WPA ( B I H ) Behind the line, head string rule # 1.5 An OB that rest exactly on the head string is playable.Then if an OB is half or better behind the head string it is not playable ! Does this confuse anyone ? Rule # 1.6 Standard Call Shot . Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are Irrelevant , Irrelevant ! So if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, cushions or combinations the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. Does this confuse anyone ?

No one I know.

 

[Shuddy]

No one I know.

I haven’t looked at the rules, but based on what he has stated, it is contradictory. I think he didn’t do a good job of highlighting the contradiction.

One rule says when playing BiH in the kitchen, an object on the kitchen line is playable, but another rules says that if half or more of the ball is behind the kitchen line, it’s not playable. If a ball is on the on the line, then half of it must be behind the kitchen line, so is it playable or not?

Again, I’m just explaining the confusion according to his statement of the rules.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I haven’t looked at the rules, but based on what he has stated, it is contradictory. I think he didn’t do a good job of highlighting the contradiction.

One rule says when playing BiH in the kitchen, an object on the kitchen line is playable, but another rules says that if half or more of the ball is behind the kitchen line, it’s not playable. If a ball is on the on the line, then half of it must be behind the kitchen line, so is it playable or not?

Again, I’m just explaining the confusion according to his statement of the rules.

I think there is no rule that says something like "half or more". The word "half" does not seem to appear anywhere in the WPA World Standardized Rules. Here is the part of Rule 1.5 that the OP was referring to. I don't know which other rule he may have been referring to.

When the shooter has the cue ball in hand behind the head string and all the legal object balls​

are behind the head string, he may request the legal object ball nearest the head string to be​

spotted. If two or more balls are equal distance from the head string, the shooter may​

designate which of the equidistant balls is to be spotted. An object ball that rests exactly on​

the head string is playable.​

I think the rules would be clearer if they explicitly stated that the location of a ball is the point on the cloth directly under its center. They should also make it clear that the spots are single points and not areas, since some people seem to be unclear on that. And I suppose that the line for in/out at straight pool racking should also be clarified in case that line is of significant width.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I should have said , after break scratch ball behind the line then the ob setting exactly on the line ( half because the ball will Only set on the exact center) that the WPA rules state that if the ball is setting on the line it is playable... Rule # 1.5 ... THEN in rule 6.11 says that if the ball is setting on the line that if 1/2 half or better is behind the line that the ball is not playable. CONTRADICTION ?

I'm confused by your comment about rule 6.11. Here is the entire rule:

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String​

​

When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct. The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game. If such shot is intentional, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.​

 

[fengor]

so if the rule just pretains to the cue ball than you can shoot at an object ball that is on the line as long as you back cut the ball to your pocket, Thus sending the cue ball past the head string. Regardless of the posittion of the object ball?

 

[Bob Jewett]

so if the rule just pretains to the cue ball than you can shoot at an object ball that is on the line as long as you back cut the ball to your pocket, Thus sending the cue ball past the head string. Regardless of the posittion of the object ball?

I think you read the "either - or" clause in Rule 6.11 wrong. You can play directly on an object ball that is (exactly) on or over the line without the cue ball first crossing the headstring.

 

[fengor]

I gueess the question would be if an object ball is just behind the head string and you back cut it to the corner the cue ball would by necesity cross the head string to cut it backwards.

So form your statement is this correct and you can only play straight at a ball that is over the line despite the cue ball passing the head string to back cut the ball?

 

[Bob Jewett]

...

So form your statement is this correct and you can only play straight at a ball that is over the line despite the cue ball passing the head string to back cut the ball?

I don't understand the question. Can you provide a drawing of the shot you have a question for?

 

[Guy Manges]

I think you read the "either - or" clause in Rule 6.11 wrong. You can play directly on an object ball that is (exactly) on or over the line without the cue ball first crossing the headstring.

It's always been that way... This isn't what I'm trying to say... I was thinking 6.11 I am wrong I'll find and repost... Somewhere WPA rules read that if a ob is Half or Better behind the line that it not playable, Am I wrong on this ? Guy

 

[Guy Manges]

I haven’t looked at the rules, but based on what he has stated, it is contradictory. I think he didn’t do a good job of highlighting the contradiction.

One rule says when playing BiH in the kitchen, an object on the kitchen line is playable, but another rules says that if half or more of the ball is behind the kitchen line, it’s not playable. If a ball is on the on the line, then half of it must be behind the kitchen line, so is it playable or not?

Again, I’m just explaining the confusion according to his statement of the rules.

You do understand that the whole top of the table behind the head string is not called the kitchen... The kitchen is the D area like on a Snooker game table... Am I wrong ? Guy

 

[jimmyco]

You do understand that the whole top of the table behind the head string is not called the kitchen... The kitchen is the D area like on a Snooker game table... Am I wrong ? Guy

Second diamond to head rail.

Should not be this difficult.

 

[Guy Manges]

That doesn’t count?

It’s a impractical shot and I’ve never seen it done, but if the CB crosses the line and comes back into the kitchen and makes a legal hit or pockets a OB, that’s not a good shot?

It’s a moot question. I can’t imagine it ever happening. But what’s the verdict?

Thanks Bob,

Eric

Eric, Are you saying that the whole area behind the head string is called the kitchen ? Guy , Could this be a new name added in the last fifty years. In my life time the kitchen area was always the D area around the spot like on a snooker game table ? Guy

 

[Poolplaya9]

I'm slow. How would a cue ball cross the kitchen line and return to the kitchen without contacting a rail or another ball?

I suppose some trick shot artist might be able to spin the ball back so hard that it reverses back into the kitchen without contacting a rail or another ball but I've never seen it, in person or on video.

Bob showed an easier way to do it in post 16, but at the 1:51 mark in the video below is a good example of another way (at :20, 1:22, 2:23, 2:40, 2:50, and 3:01 are some other examples of essentially the same type of masse shot). It isn't actually as tough as it looks and can be done with the cue ball only going forward as little as a couple of inches before coming back (but most people/places are not going to be ok with you practicing these on their table lol).

 

[Fatboy]

Eric, Are you saying that the whole area behind the head string is called the kitchen ? Guy , Could this be a new name added in the last fifty years. In my life time the kitchen area was always the D area around the spot like on a snooker game table ? Guy

I always thought it was the whole area behind the head string. I could be wrong. I’ve always embraced pool jargon and know it well. However the term “kitchen” I never used, I’ve heard it 5 million times. But just never used it.

It’s very possible I’m wrong, I’m not 100% confident. Maybe it is the D or the break box??

I’d like to know.

Best I can do