Do these rules seem confusing to anyone ?

[Poolplaya9]

I don't understand the question. Can you provide a drawing of the shot you have a question for?

Pretty sure this is what he is trying to ask. Using your diagram from post #16, the cue ball is in the same place, and lets say the object ball is very close to the head spot but anywhere from just barely behind the head string in the kitchen to almost a full ball behind the head string in the kitchen (going by centers of course). You shoot straight at the object ball attempting to back cut it into the bottom right corner and where the cue ball has crossed the head string before reaching the object ball (but the cue ball/object ball contact point could be either side of the head string).

Essentially his question is if there is also a requirement that the object ball must always be outside of the head string to be shot, or is the sole requirement just that the cue ball crosses the head string before contact and where the object ball was located is completely immaterial? Rule 6.11 seems to say that you can indeed shoot directly at an object ball that is inside the kitchen such as in the example above as long as the cue ball crosses the head string before contact, and that the cue ball crossing the head string before contact is indeed the one and only requirement to make it legal, and he is just trying to confirm that this is the correct interpretation.

 

[Renegade_56]

You do understand that the whole top of the table behind the head string is not called the kitchen... The kitchen is the D area like on a Snooker game table... Am I wrong ? Guy

yes

 

[Poolplaya9]

Eric, Are you saying that the whole area behind the head string is called the kitchen ? Guy , Could this be a new name added in the last fifty years. In my life time the kitchen area was always the D area around the spot like on a snooker game table ? Guy

The whole area behind the head string is the only way I've ever heard it used my whole life, and I've heard it used a billion times.

 

[Guy Manges]

I always thought it was the whole area behind the head string. I could be wrong. I’ve always embraced pool jargon and know it well. However the term “kitchen” I never used, I’ve heard it 5 million times. But just never used it.

It’s very possible I’m wrong, I’m not 100% confident. Maybe it is the D or the break box??

I’d like to know.

Best I can do

Yes I'd like to know for sure... I always knew the kitchen as break box around the foot spot... Guy

 

[Guy Manges]

Sorry I'm in my 80s and I may have opened a can of worms... I just never hear of anyone calling the kitchen anymore... All my world is and has always been 8 Ball I started with Mexico rules and then Texas express then WPA, Now Heyball... I know it's hard for anyone to believe how many times this ball centered on head string line can come up, I've seen it several times and it always causes problems... Forget Contradictory... My question is, In 8 Ball if a foul puts me behind the head string line and a OB is centered on that line is it playable ? I know what 1.5 WPA rule says... Guy

 

[Renegade_56]

Sorry I'm in my 80s and I may have opened a can of worms... I just never hear of anyone calling the kitchen anymore... All my world is and has always been 8 Ball I started with Mexico rules and then Texas express then WPA, Now Heyball... I know it's hard for anyone to believe how many times this ball centered on head string line can come up, I've seen it several times and it always causes problems... Forget Contradictory... My question is, In 8 Ball if a foul puts me behind the head string line and a OB is centered on that line is it playable ? I know what 1.5 WPA rule says... Guy

I said yes, as in YES, you are wrong, there is no D shape in the kitchen. The D shape in snooker is not even consistent, as it is different sizes depending on the size of the snooker table.

 

[fengor]

I don't understand the question. Can you provide a drawing of the shot you have a question for?

If I where to cut the 10 ball in the upper left hand corner clearly the cue ball would have to completly leave the kitchen before contact with the object ball

So my question is more to do with how the rule is written as I feel that is not a legal shot

 

[Bob Jewett]

Yes I'd like to know for sure... I always knew the kitchen as break box around the foot spot... Guy

The foot spot is the spot where the balls are racked.

The kitchen is all of the playing surface between the headstring and the head cushion. The head spot is at the edge of the kitchen. "Kitchen" does not appear in the official rules; it is a slang expression. It is equivalent to the more correct traditional term, "balk", which also does not appear in the rules.

The only time a player may get ball in hand behind the line at eight ball is for a scratch on the break shot. All fouls later in the rack are penalized by ball in hand anywhere.

 

[Bob Jewett]

View attachment 646046
If I where to cut the 10 ball in the upper left hand corner clearly the cue ball would have to completly leave the kitchen before contact with the object ball

So my question is more to do with how the rule is written as I feel that is not a legal shot

You are allowed by the current rules to cut the 10 back to a head pocket. This was a change in the last 15 years. Before that, such a shot was forbidden. I doubt the rule ever comes into play.

 

[fengor]

ok got it thanks

 

[Guy Manges]

View attachment 646046
If I where to cut the 10 ball in the upper left hand corner clearly the cue ball would have to completly leave the kitchen before contact with the object ball

So my question is more to do with how the rule is written as I feel that is not a legal shot

Unless I'm seeing real bad that 10 ball is not center sitting on the line... I would see that 10 ball as behind the line and not playable unless the CB was shot past the line and come back like from rail or masse...

 

[Bob Jewett]

Unless I'm seeing real bad that 10 ball is not center sitting on the line... I would see that 10 ball as behind the line and not playable unless the CB was shot past the line and come back like from rail or masse...

In order to get to the ghost ball position, the cue ball will have to cross the headstring.

 

[Renegade_56]

In order to get to the ghost ball position, the cue ball will have to cross the headstring.

I disagree with this Bob, as the base of that object ball clearly is in the kitchen which makes it ineligible, unless you went across the line hit something else, ball, rail, something, and then hit that ball. The rule for an eligible object ball says it must be on the head string at least, which this ball clearly is not. Ghost ball spot to the upper corner has nothing to do with it. That would start a disagreement in any establishment every time in my view. I agree the cueball has to cross the line but that doesn't make a ball in the kitchen a legal hit. This attempt would certainly be called unsportsmanlike.

 

[Guy Manges]

I said yes, as in YES, you are wrong, there is no D shape in the kitchen. The D shape in snooker is not even consistent, as it is different sizes depending on the size of the snooker table.

How can I be wrong by asking a question ? I will admit to the whole table being a kitchen if needed...

 

[WoodyJ]

How can I be wrong by asking a question ? I will admit to the whole table being a kitchen if needed...

Nothing wrong with asking a question. You're just trying to compare apple and oranges and not listening to the answers.

Snooker tables have a D and, they have no spots on the side rails so they have no string line(s). Pool tables are the opposite.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I disagree with this Bob, as the base of that object ball clearly is in the kitchen which makes it ineligible, unless you went across the line hit something else, ball, rail, something, and then hit that ball. The rule for an eligible object ball says it must be on the head string at least, which this ball clearly is not. Ghost ball spot to the upper corner has nothing to do with it. That would start a disagreement in any establishment every time in my view. I agree the cueball has to cross the line but that doesn't make a ball in the kitchen a legal hit. This attempt would certainly be called unsportsmanlike.

See Rule 6.11 posted by Bob Jewett in post #30 (quoted and linked to below) as not only does it not say what you are claiming, it says just the opposite. In no uncertain terms it says it is not a foul if "the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact". Crossing the line before contact is the one and only requirement needed to make it legal. You do not also have to contact any rails or balls outside the kitchen before the collision with that ball inside the kitchen to make it legal, although the rule does state that is an alternative way you can shoot the shot that is available to you that would also serve to make it legal. Shooting directly at the ten ball to cut it into the top left corner as diagrammed in post #47 (linked to below) would indeed have the cue ball crossing the head string before contact which the rule explicitly states makes it a legal shot.

As for your contention that "the rule for an eligible object ball says it must be on the head string at least", that isn't what that rule says either. The applicable part of Rule 1.5 (quoted and linked to below) is talking about when you can request a ball be spotted, but it does not specify anything about when a ball is or is not legal to shoot other than making clear that if an object ball is on the head string it can be shot directly with no requirement needed for the cue ball to first cross the head string (and it is rule 6.11 that makes clear that if the object ball is behind as opposed to on the head string the cue ball must first pass the head string before contact with the ball to make it legal, with no other rail or ball contacts outside the kitchen being needed).

In the shot from post #47 you could either shoot that ten ball the way it was described where the cue ball would indeed end up crossing the head string before contact, or you could have it spotted either one (since all object balls were in the kitchen), your choice (and of course you also have the option to kick to a rail outside the kitchen first etc), but both options are available to you on this shot and both are legal.

"6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct. The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game. If such shot is intentional, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct."

Applicable part of Rule 1.5
"When the shooter has the cue ball in hand behind the head string and all the legal object balls
are behind the head string, he may request the legal object ball nearest the head string to be
spotted. If two or more balls are equal distance from the head string, the shooter may
designate which of the equidistant balls is to be spotted. An object ball that rests exactly on
the head string is playable."

Do these rules seem confusing to anyone ?

This is my first time doing this so please bear with me, WPA ( B I H ) Behind the line, head string rule # 1.5 An OB that rest exactly on the head string is playable.Then if an OB is half or better behind the head string it is not playable ! Does this confuse anyone ? Rule # 1.6 Standard Call...

forums.azbilliards.com

Do these rules seem confusing to anyone ?

This is my first time doing this so please bear with me, WPA ( B I H ) Behind the line, head string rule # 1.5 An OB that rest exactly on the head string is playable.Then if an OB is half or better behind the head string it is not playable ! Does this confuse anyone ? Rule # 1.6 Standard Call...

forums.azbilliards.com

Do these rules seem confusing to anyone ?

This is my first time doing this so please bear with me, WPA ( B I H ) Behind the line, head string rule # 1.5 An OB that rest exactly on the head string is playable.Then if an OB is half or better behind the head string it is not playable ! Does this confuse anyone ? Rule # 1.6 Standard Call...

forums.azbilliards.com

 

[hang-the-9]

You do understand that the whole top of the table behind the head string is not called the kitchen... The kitchen is the D area like on a Snooker game table... Am I wrong ? Guy

It's everything behind that line on the second diamond. In some tournaments they have a limit on the break which they call a "break box" that is more limited but that is not "behind the line" rule.

 

[Guy Manges]

It's everything behind that line on the second diamond. In some tournaments they have a limit on the break which they call a "break box" that is more limited but that is not "behind the line" rule.

Back in the fifties I was taught that the break box was the kitchen... In my seventy five plus years of playing I'm sure many wordings have changed... I thank God that I'm still conscious... I know one thing from now on everything behind the head string line is called the kitchen... I thank goodness we still have cues, tables and balls... Guy

 

[Guy Manges]

View attachment 646046
If I where to cut the 10 ball in the upper left hand corner clearly the cue ball would have to completly leave the kitchen before contact with the object ball

So my question is more to do with how the rule is written as I feel that is not a legal shot

Boy I wish you could ask that question to Dr Dave and he would answer, Because the track of the cue ball would pass the head string line to hit, cut the ten ball back to the top left corner pocket... So if you take a straight edge lay it on a track to the 10 which is behind the line it will show legal...

 

[tatcat2000]

Here's a (theoretically) practical example of taking advantage of the lack of a requirement in WSR to touch a cushion or ball on or past the head string before contacting a ball behind the head string.

In a 14.1 game, Player A has just scratched. Playing the ball behind the head string offers a far better option than the ball past the head string. This shot is legal under WSR, but illegal in many other rule sets, including CSI/BCAPL.