Do tighter pockets favor the shotmaker?

[Chili Palmer]

If a player is so inclined and actually wants to improve, tougher equipment could possibly break them of laziness and lackadaisical play that they are used to getting away with.

You can't actually make anybody do anything but a training device can certainly point out certain things to a player that he may not even have realized. Sloppy play on loose equipment just becomes a habit. Of course you can play precision on loose equipment, but you probably won't.

It also should be said that some tables just play unfairly. I've played on tables that just spit out perfectly hit balls. I should be allowed to expect a certain result when I hit a ball.

I 100% agree tighter pockets makes you pay more attention, if I'm on a loose table I'll definitely shoot shots I wouldn't on a Diamond. I would be McF***ed if I played on a diamond today because I have only played on loose tables for the last 10-12 months.

But...put 10 people who have never played pool in a room and tell them the best player lives. One of them will have the skillset to be the best, the other 9 - well, you get the idea...

Think of Olympians, you don't think they've put those 10,000 hours in and they still come in second place? Some people have it and some don't - no amount of training or equipment will change that.

There will always be someone better and no matter what happens - those tight pockets will not improve the play of people who just don't have it in them.

 

[Ghost of OBC]

I only played on tight pockets for years , thinking buckets make you sloppy. And still think that today.
But one day talking with Danny D he said that's crazy you should play on the same size table your going to compete on.
I would like to think WE ARE BOTH CORRECT ! IMHO

I think you get to the point of the matter. If you always practice on tight tables, and then play on a looser table, but don't adjust your game to take advantage of the new possibilities of the looser table, you have created a disadvantage for yourself. For example, what looks like an "on" kick, bank, or cut is dependent on the playability of the table. If you use eyes accustomed to tight pockets to evaluate a layout on a loose table, you put yourself at a disadvantage. Likewise shape: on tight pockets you might be less willing to settle for just okay shape, so you take harder routes to better spots. If you are doing that unnecessarily, over a few sets, you might end up at a net disadvantage over someone who practices and plays on the loose table. TLDR: this game ain't all potting.

 

[thebark]

Reading this thread reminds me of the old adage "Talent instantly recognizes genius, Mediocrity recognizes nothing other than itself."

 

[sjm]

I just can't get on board that a tighter pocket improves a players ability. A tighter pocket only forces you to be more precise but it cannot CAUSE you to be more precise - if you have it you have it - if you don't you don't.

Cause vs correlation.

Pretty much how I see it, too. Still, once you get past that theoretical point, you must arrive at the practical matter that necessity is the mother of invention.

The tight equipment will cause most to be even more attentive to their pre-shot routine and to staying down on their shot, because they are in greater danger of missing balls. The tight equipment will, similarly, motivate players to be more ambitious in their position play.

In short, I think you are right to say that the tight equipment itself won't make one a better player, but for many a serious player, it will motivate them to refine parts of their game, which will, in turn, make them a better player.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I just can't get on board that a tighter pocket improves a players ability. A tighter pocket only forces you to be more precise but it cannot CAUSE you to be more precise - if you have it you have it - if you don't you don't.

Cause vs correlation.

Exactly – if you’re missing on 5-1/2 inch buckets, you’re not going to start making those shots on 4-1/2 inch diamonds.

 

[middleofnowhere]

I 100% agree tighter pockets makes you pay more attention, if I'm on a loose table I'll definitely shoot shots I wouldn't on a Diamond. I would be McF***ed if I played on a diamond today because I have only played on loose tables for the last 10-12 months.

But...put 10 people who have never played pool in a room and tell them the best player lives. One of them will have the skillset to be the best, the other 9 - well, you get the idea...

Think of Olympians, you don't think they've put those 10,000 hours in and they still come in second place? Some people have it and some don't - no amount of training or equipment will change that.

There will always be someone better and no matter what happens - those tight pockets will not improve the play of people who just don't have it in them.

Everybody has a level of personal best. It is all one can strive for.

 

[Dan White]

The intent was to be NOT about whether tight pockets make you a better player
and NOT about whether tight pockets favor the better player.

Those are two interesting things worthy of discussion. They're just different subjects.

Mike's trying to herd cats.

 

[gypsy_soul]

Here is a short video about Alex P and Ruslan C engaging in a shelf-stocking competition. And it's also about whether smaller pockets favor the straight shooter.

Well you seem to know and you sure do have the talking part down . Let’s see you play some on 4” pockets ! Let’s see it

 

[Chili Palmer]

Pretty much how I see it, too. Still, once you get past that theoretical point, you must arrive at the practical matter that necessity is the mother of invention.

The tight equipment will cause most to be even more attentive to their pre-shot routine and to staying down on their shot, because they are in greater danger of missing balls. The tight equipment will, similarly, motivate players to be more ambitious in their position play.

In short, I think you are right to say that the tight equipment itself won't make one a better player, but for many a serious player, it will motivate them to refine parts of their game, which will, in turn, make them a better player.

100% agree, when I was playing competitively there is no doubt I paid attention when on tight pockets. Another example is my table at home. For whatever reason the corners will kick the OB out if you put extreme draw and hit hard (not overpowering it, just a good solid hit), people come over and play and it'll kick one out and they get that look on their face and I just chuckle and say "You'll have to go play on the diamonds to make those shots"

 

[Chili Palmer]

Mike's trying to herd cats.

In this world it's big cats with big egos

 

[middleofnowhere]

This is just an antidote.
Some years ago the place where I was playing the owner came back from the BCA show and he had put in an order for a diamond table. In a short time the table was delivered and they installed it right in front of the bar which was like the number one table where we all matched up and played ring games and so on.

Being used to Gold crown tables we were a little dumbfounded after starting to play on this new table. To the point we kind of steered away from it and found ourselves not playing on the great front table anymore.

You know what happens, in a short time we were all playing on the front table again and we didn't even notice the difference anymore we had adapted to it and I would probably say we were all the better for it.

I know I often matched up with strangers and if we played on that table I felt a distinct advantage. You would see the shock on their face when that table spit out a ball for the first time they knew they had hit good.

 

[boogieman]

It would be my fault if the question is unclear.

We start with two players of overall equal skill (say after 2,000 games between them it is 1000 to 1000), but who have a somewhat different MIX of skill. One relies a little more on SHOTMAKING and the other relies a little more on MOVING.

Then we change to a table with smaller pockets. Does making shots harder favor the better shotmaker or the better mover?

It's a fun thought experiment but I don't think there's any concrete answer. Does the mover use cheating the pocket extensively to get shape? Does the better mover know to not overcook it? Does he/she move the ball better because they have a clean stroke?

It's not the question but I do feel tighter equipment will make you both a better shooter and mover. You must make the ball, you can use more optimal routes on tighter pockets. I used to load the hell out of the CB. I struggled on tight equipment. Many bar players that play on our friend group's tighter tables struggle at first then catch on. As long as you can hit a target with pinpoint precision you can catch on rather quickly. Now I know what I can get away with. When playing on loose 5" pockets I now can pick more area in the pocket to cheat it, but I still must hit the exact area to get the exact results.

Tighter pockets for a shotmaker that also knows how to cut an opponent off makes them a sure favorite. I'll gladly leave a worse player a real challenge (low percentage) if it's 8' away and requires some real juice to get shape. Most times they miss the shot, but even if they make it there is no reward. Hard shot after hard shot until it's my turn at the table. Playing higher level players this isn't the case, but you can still set "traps" if you're observant.

 

[Chili Palmer]

100% agree, when I was playing competitively there is no doubt I paid attention when on tight pockets. Another example is my table at home. For whatever reason the corners will kick the OB out if you put extreme draw and hit hard (not overpowering it, just a good solid hit), people come over and play and it'll kick one out and they get that look on their face and I just chuckle and say "You'll have to go play on the diamonds to make those shots"

I forgot to add that I play for position in my corner pockets specifically for this reason.

 

[telinoz]

Over the years I played both VNEA and BCAPL.
Valley table's, generous pockets.
Diamond tables, tighter.
7ft tables.

I saw more average players make a runout on the Valley tables than Diamonds.
Speaks volumes to me.

 

[fastone371]

Whoa there……those two are not my examples. They are the ones elaborated about in the video.
I am criticizing the video for offering up misleading, non-representative examples and stated it so.

Ask any top pro that has played on a 10’ table if it plays harder than a 9’ with the same size pockets,
even 4.5” CP and 5” side pockets. Of course it does and the reverse is true of 7’ tables playing easier.

I put it to you this way. Go play basketball on a 10’ hoop but shrink the basket opening by only 10%-
12%. Then go to your scrimmage game with full size basket hoops. You will make more baskets unless
the defense on you is really tight. Do it with a golf course. Shrink the size of the cup opening on the
Practice greens by 15% and then go play golf with full size cups. Whenever you make it more generous
or easier to pocket pool balls, i.e., bigger pockets, anyone that plays regularly on tables with tight pockets
is going to find that table easier to play on, presuming the table is in decent playing condition. But the two
examples offered in that video were absurd and it was stupid to attempt correlating them to pocket billiards.

Mike was not comparing football athletics to pool or shelf stocking to pool, he was simply using them in an analogy to get people thinking. For example the short, muscular, low to the ground running back may only be better suited to football under certain conditions like smaller defensive backs, when DB's get bigger and cant be knocked over as easy it might be better to be the other running back, thin, wiry, and fast to make the DB's miss.

 

[tomatoshooter]

I just can't get on board that a tighter pocket improves a players ability. A tighter pocket only forces you to be more precise but it cannot CAUSE you to be more precise - if you have it you have it - if you don't you don't.

Cause vs correlation.

I agree. I think that a tighter pocket can make you more aware of poor shooting so you decide to work on your stroke and stance. Likewise, it will incentivize you to play better position. The real advantage is that when you play on a table with bigger pockets you get the confidence boost from making tough shots. Going to a tougher table from an easier one can erode your confidence just because you are missing more. If I am diligent about improving my game I don't think large pockets will hold me back.

So, back to the original question, do tight pockets favor the shotmaker? I don't know. The idea that the position player's skills help him as much as the shotmaker's skills help him is certainly plausible. The difference may come down to which player is more comfortable. If our shotmaker is used to making 90% of his shots and he's hitting 80%, he may get rattled. But our position player went from 80% to 60%. If the math holds true, his wider shot distribution means more of his balls are hitting the last 1/4" we extended the rail before the pocket so the small pockets should hurt his shooting percentage more than the shotmaker. But he may have the strategy and mental skills to cope with it. It would be interesting to see some actual data, but I'm starting to think it will come down to who has the confidence to shake off the misses and play their game more than the more measurable skills.

 

[tomatoshooter]

It also should be said that some tables just play unfairly. I've played on tables that just spit out perfectly hit balls. I should be allowed to expect a certain result when I hit a ball.

I know the feeling. It's not the same as an honest but tight pocket but I'm sure it's bad for my game. I have remind myself that I can shoot a draw shot down the rail because that goes from a difficult shot that can be worth the risk to strong chance I will be sitting down. It's hard to incorporate the extra potential into your game.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I know the feeling. It's not the same as an honest but tight pocket but I'm sure it's bad for my game. I have remind myself that I can shoot a draw shot down the rail because that goes from a difficult shot that can be worth the risk to strong chance I will be sitting down. It's hard to incorporate the extra potential into your game.

We have a table in our break room at work and I rarely play on it because the rails suck. I’m pretty proficient at banks and 3 railers but that table is so inconsistent I get frustrated. I swear the balls come off the rails faster than they go into them, sometimes it plays short and sometimes it plays long. I only focus on my mechanics on that table, anything else is fruitless.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Pretty much how I see it, too. Still, once you get past that theoretical point, you must arrive at the practical matter that necessity is the mother of invention.

The tight equipment will cause most to be even more attentive to their pre-shot routine and to staying down on their shot, because they are in greater danger of missing balls. The tight equipment will, similarly, motivate players to be more ambitious in their position play.

In short, I think you are right to say that the tight equipment itself won't make one a better player, but for many a serious player, it will motivate them to refine parts of their game, which will, in turn, make them a better player.

First of all, the table does not make the player better, nor will 4-3/8” corner pockets on a 9’ table.
Secondly, it’s the player doing the aiming, stroking, calculating the stroke needed to make the shot.

Tighter pockets only make you a better player if you practice correctly and strive to become better.
Just playing pool on a table with tight pockets does not make you a better player. The right approach
to conquering the challenge presented by tight pockets requires more accurate shot making and when
you shoot more accurately, you will win more matches. Not every match but a lot more than you’d imagine.

 

[lfigueroa]

It would be my fault if the question is unclear.

We start with two players of overall equal skill (say after 2,000 games between them it is 1000 to 1000), but who have a somewhat different MIX of skill. One relies a little more on SHOTMAKING and the other relies a little more on MOVING.

Then we change to a table with smaller pockets. Does making shots harder favor the better shotmaker or the better mover?

I don't think it's that simple -- it's like asking what makes a recipe better, when lots of different ingredients could contribute to a more flavorful dish.

It could be as simple as the nod going to the guy who adapts better/quicker. Some guys can just adjust better to faster/slower cloth, or different rail angles, or smaller pockets, or any number of other factors.

Lou Figueroa