During some matches on ESPN the commentators sometimes note that a player's proper follow-through leaves the cue pointing down almost touching the table (and I'm not referring only to draw shots). So, what's the deal? Does proper follow-through leave the cue at the same level as when it hit the CB or is there a dip of the cue?
Do you dip the cue on follow-through?
- Thread starter papi
- Start date
Dip the tip LOL
While some peoples oppinions may very, I think most will tell you that a proper follow through will leave you tip pointing at (if not touching) the cloth. The only way to keep it from doing this is to have a short follow through or to drop your elbow in an effort to keep the cue level after impact and neither of these things are good.
Woody
While some peoples oppinions may very, I think most will tell you that a proper follow through will leave you tip pointing at (if not touching) the cloth. The only way to keep it from doing this is to have a short follow through or to drop your elbow in an effort to keep the cue level after impact and neither of these things are good.
Woody
bruin70 said:
If you don't drop your elbow, your tip will always point down if not touch the cloth. There are a lot of pros that drop there elbows so of course their tips won't always touch the cloth but then again a lot of pros don't play with optimal fundamentals!
If the stroke is performed correctly, the tip WILL be pointing downward or touching the cloth! Dropping the elbow will raise the tip in the finish position. This is proven on camera in slow motion! EVEN the force follow, the tip will dip! Most Pro's stroke like this, some don't. Just because a PRO has good cue ball control doesn't mean that they have a good stroke. It takes them years to perfect their flaws. In reality, they don't fix what's broken, they adapt to what's broken.
Zim
Zim
Zims Rack said:
Actually Zim 99% of the pros out there keep their tips level on center ball and follow shots. I have yet to see a pro who does not do this. Here's the tricky part, is that some don't even drop their elbows, and their tip stays level. I have been studying this for a long time. I have noticed that alot of female players keep their tip level, without dropping their elbows, and they follow ALL the way thru. I think you must have a certain body type to do this.
Zim, if most of the pros out there are keeping their tips level, then how can you say that it's a flaw? I mean, if these guys are doing that, and playing like champions (because they are champions), how can anyone, who does not play like a champion, say that keeping your tip level, or dropping your elbow, is wrong? That just doesn't make much sense to me. My good friend Ernesto Dominguez told me that you SHOULD drop your elbow, on alot of shots, but just a LITTLE BIT. He says it gives you a more pure stroke. Ernesto is one of the best players in the world, I would rather take advice from him than someone who doesn't even play half his speed (Zim, I am NOT talking about you here, I am just making a generalization, for all I know you could play like a champion).
I say, if you want to be good, then copy the pros. If they all share something in common, like keeping the tip level, then it's got to be correct.
Good post LastTwo! Pick 3 of the top male Pro's, any 3...how long have they been playing pool? How long did it take them to reach their level of play (playability, not status)? I know a 9 year old who can run racks and racks of 8/9 ball and obviously hasn't been playing 1/2 the amount of time or more than the 3 pro's. FUNDAMENTALS! CONSISTENCY! KNOWLEDGE! PROPER PRACTICE! Every player, both pro and ametuer, have flaws, time is what seperates the abilities of the two. A flaw that an ametuer has, overtime if not corrected, he/she will learn to adjust their fundamentals to compensate for that flaw...this takes time. Someone who knows and practices and consistently uses the proper fundamentals can save years of time on their game.
Zim
Zim
Zims Rack said:
That was a good post too, Zim. But what proof do you have that having your tip dive down on the follow thru is better than keeping it level? Again, my point is, that if 99% of all the pros out there do that, than how can it be wrong? How can you call it a flaw? If they all share that in common, than there has got to be something correct about it, am I right?
Rackin_Zack said:
well,,,that's the contradiction, isn't it...
level your stroke,,,don't drop your elbow. both are taught, but they cannot coexist....and most all players i know drop their elbow. ergo, their tip doesn't touch cloth. except maybe on a draw shot. and even then , they play so close to center ball that they can acheive maximum english without going to the edge of the cb.
Papi I would suggest that you take the advice from Woody, JimS and Zims rack they're on the right track with advice. It's hard to ask a question in here or make a post on any subject without so many people actually trying to answer them. Whether they know or not! That is just their opinion! They see some pro's do it one way and others do it another way. Please listen to a Instructor who knows what they are talking about. I have been teaching now for 18 years and now professionally for 14. I have worked with many pros to beginners and I respect each and everyone of them. Im not here to criticize anyone for making any posts because that is just their opinion and in the end you will have to decide. Thankspapi said:
I totally agree with DennyS. I'm sure you can learn to shoot many different ways, why not learn the easiest, most reliable way?
I am very doubtful of the accuracy of LastTwo's statistics on dropping the elbow. I helped clean tables one year at the Peoria tournament, and there were TONS of chalk marks on the tables after every match, and plenty of pro's not dropping their elbows.
I am very doubtful of the accuracy of LastTwo's statistics on dropping the elbow. I helped clean tables one year at the Peoria tournament, and there were TONS of chalk marks on the tables after every match, and plenty of pro's not dropping their elbows.
drivermaker
Banned
Williebetmore said:
Yeah, but were those chalk marks from them applying the lowest amount of tip offset that you put on the ball for a draw stroke (which they use a lot) or from center and follow? I doubt that it was the latter. Even when I apply draw or low english, there's an audible zinging sound as my tip zips across the cloth after striking the CB, but not on other shots. (chalk marks present after that) It seems to me that ALL of the instructors have been taught in the instruction school that this is the accepted, approved method of teaching EVERYONE to stroke and it just seems too contrived to force that into each stroke. And all those heavily supporting this have either gone to instruction school, are instructors, or have been schooled in this through much instruction by the instructors that have gone through instruction school. (whew-sigh) I'd like to see more positive proof amongst a large cross section of pro's in video action that this is the case.
drivermaker said:
Mostly from draw, occasionally from below center hits. Center ball hits result in the cue tip very close to the cloth, but not always touching. Remember though, that if these posters are advocating a truly level stroke, then there would be no chalk marks, even with draw.
Elbow drop on the followthrough is NOT a flaw and it does not equal a worse stroke or less perfection then a no elbow drop stroke. They are two distict stroking styles and both have advantages that the other does not. Do what comes natural and feels right when it comes to elbowdrop and a straight cue followthrough or a diving tip and no elbowdrop. If you try to artificially do the opposite to what comes natural in this instant you are simply giving yourself a headache you dont need. Elbow drop is NOT a stroking flaw that "pro's must practice years to deal with and use", it is just as viable and easy to use as no elbow drop as the tip of the cue actually follows straight through the cueball instead of arching through it. All of the "OMG u hav elbow drop!" crap you see around is 98% the BCA instructional force spewing out their system like it is the one and only. Well over 50% of top pro's, master level BCA players, ect.... with at least partial elbow drop should tell you something. It is not a flaw, it has alot of advantages and there is a reason so many top players do it.
I also thought I might mention that I have had lessons from traditional instructors who as most people know strongly advocate not dropping the elbow. I have also had lessons from 3 professionals ranked in the top 10 (2 have reached #1), as well as a former World Champion in 4 different disciplines. Of these players, 2 dropped their elbow, but ALL recommended that I should not.
P.S. - When I spoke with Lee Trevino in 1971, he told me, "Son you'd have to be crazy to swing like me."
P.S. - When I spoke with Lee Trevino in 1971, he told me, "Son you'd have to be crazy to swing like me."
Celtic said:
Celtic,
I definitely see your point. I think most players will use the elbow drop as beginning players because it does feel more natural to try and guide the ball, and I do think you can excel using this type of stroke (see Steve Mizerak and Willie Mosconi in his later years). I would not agree, however that it is just as easy to use and develop. Elbow drop strokes have more moving parts, and I cannot believe that more moving parts does not equal a more difficult to develop and perfect stroke. That's why I gave up golf; too many moving parts in my swing, too difficult to train and master. I can't see why any beginner would want to learn a more difficult swing, and I can't see why anybody who has mastered an elbow drop stroke would want to change (don't mess with success). JMO.
Hey, I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. This question is easy to resolve. Just take 100 sets of identical twins, age 16 who have never played pool. Send one twin of each set to a BCA instructor for 2 hours a week (practicing 1 hour a day at home). Send the other twin to the local pool hall to soak up the knowledge of the degenerate pool gamblers for 2 hours a week (practicing 1 hour a day at home). After 6 months have the twins play each other. My money is on the twins with the formal instruction (because that is the point of the instruction; its a way to improve faster, not necessarily the "only" way to do it).