drivermaker
Banned
Williebetmore said:
LOL...But Trevino went far beyond what would be equal to elbow drop. He might be more akin to elbow drop, head bop, a moving shoulder, standing up prior to contact, and rotating your hips on the backstroke.
Do you dip the cue on follow-through?
- Thread starter papi
- Start date
LOL...But Trevino went far beyond what would be equal to elbow drop. He might be more akin to elbow drop, head bop, a moving shoulder, standing up prior to contact, and rotating your hips on the backstroke.
Williebetmore said:
What did you expect? If you dont have a natural elbow-drop a instructor would have to be nuts to try and promote one. It is a fluid motion that adds more movement into the stroke and if a person does not do it naturally to start it would be almost impossible to teach someone and they would miss everything. Plus it is a no win no loss situation, both systems work as well as the other and in this case you go with what the player feels natural doing. There are alot of stroke flaws that exist in pool, elbow drop is NOT one of them.
If I had a student that had zero elbow drop and they asked if they should start dropping their elbow like I do I would tell them "hell no" right along with your instructors. Of course if I had a student that had a elbow drop naturally and they asked if they should lose the elbow drop I would tell them "hell no" in that case too.
drivermaker
Banned
Williebetmore said:
But which one would be able to match up better and woof the other one into a dumb ass bet and take away all the cash?
drivermaker said:LOL...But Trevino went far beyond what would be equal to elbow drop. He might be more akin to elbow drop, head bop, a moving shoulder, standing up prior to contact, and rotating your hips on the backstroke.
D'maker,
Yes, exactly. And I would say that such a stroke in pool would be impossible, EXCEPT there is a guy in our pool room who twitches while he strokes back and forth; moves his back hand left, right, up and down after he sets up; lunges forward with his whole upper body AS HE STROKES; then violently whips his cue to the side after contact with the cue ball. He actually pockets balls fairly well, can beat anyone the occasional game. I think everyone is afraid to play him (thinking some of this might be contagious).
Celtic said:
Celtic,
Actually that's not the case in my situation. I played with an elbow drop for 35 years (patterned my stroke on Steve Mizerak), never did better than ball-banger. Once I changed my stroke a year ago to the "no elbow drop" my game just exploded for the better (no world beater, but I've won local tournaments and am able to practice and compete unsuccessfully with the pro's). I just wish someone had showed me this 35 years ago; then I wouldn't have this pesky day job - I would be out there living in my car, spending my life in smoky pool halls. Oh well, maybe when I retire.
drivermaker said:But which one would be able to match up better and woof the other one into a dumb ass bet and take away all the cash?
D'maker,
That's an easy one to predict - it will be the twin with the 2 pack a day cigarette habit, Herpes, 3 misdemeanor convictions, and developing amphetamine addiction (but he will definitely take the cash, unless he is teaching his brother how to carve up a backer).
drivermaker
Banned
Williebetmore said:
LMAO...........Did anyone ever think this of Arnie and Jack? Only in the world of pool. T'is true.....
drivermaker
Banned
Williebetmore said:
Doesn't a good part of this also have to do with a person's height, physical stature, and how erect or bent over from the waist they choose to shoot? There is no way Mike Davis could do almost anything else than hinge his shoulder and drop the elbow, and we're talking a mammoth drop in his case.
I think it also has to do with how you release the cue in a straight line with the wrist uncocking fully and the back part of the butt moving up to almost touch the forearm in the follow through to get the tip that low to the cloth.
If you're using backhand english or tucking and rolling, that's just not going to happen. You HAVE to have a straight stroke on all shots, parallel english, and all that good stuff like most instructors will teach. How many instuctors teach backhand or tuck and roll to their students?
Williebetmore said:
Hello Willie,
Reading this, isn't it a possibility that you are one of those "natural non-elbow-droppers" (hrm...) and that The Miz got you stroking against your natural grain, and now you've discovered your destined stroke and hence improved your game?
Imo, there are a variety of strokes you must master to be successful on the table. For instance, I find power follow shots require elbow-dropping, otherwise I feel constricted and the results are nearly always bad. Some shots call for more dropping, some less, some none at all, and pros/good players adjust accordingly throughout a match.
-Roger
I really can't believe in the entire post there has been no mention of the height of the rails.
Here is the way I see it. On a center ball hit the tip must dip. period... It may not go all the way to the cloth, but there is no choice.
Exceptions - If your bridge hand is resting on the rail, you could make the tip go up after impact. OR If your using a vary elevated bridge you could make the tip go up, but usually when your bridge is that elevated it is because your shooting over a ball and your back hand is way up, so your tip is heading toward the cloth anyway.
Everyone seems to agree about this on a draw shot.
On a center ball hit make a normal bridge on the table (not on the rail) and lay the back of the stick on the rail. The stick is pointing down. The only way to make it point level or up is to raise your bridge.
On a follow shot, I think it is the same thing. If your hitting the upper most part of the cue ball, you might have the stick close to level, but I still think after the hit it move toward the cloth.
You see the rail won't move. You can't make the back of the stick go lower than the rail and the rail is higher than your bridge. So the tip must go down. Unless you raise your bridge after impact, which I don't think anyone here is going to recommend.
Here is the way I see it. On a center ball hit the tip must dip. period... It may not go all the way to the cloth, but there is no choice.
Exceptions - If your bridge hand is resting on the rail, you could make the tip go up after impact. OR If your using a vary elevated bridge you could make the tip go up, but usually when your bridge is that elevated it is because your shooting over a ball and your back hand is way up, so your tip is heading toward the cloth anyway.
Everyone seems to agree about this on a draw shot.
On a center ball hit make a normal bridge on the table (not on the rail) and lay the back of the stick on the rail. The stick is pointing down. The only way to make it point level or up is to raise your bridge.
On a follow shot, I think it is the same thing. If your hitting the upper most part of the cue ball, you might have the stick close to level, but I still think after the hit it move toward the cloth.
You see the rail won't move. You can't make the back of the stick go lower than the rail and the rail is higher than your bridge. So the tip must go down. Unless you raise your bridge after impact, which I don't think anyone here is going to recommend.
buddha162 said:
Don't you think it would be easier to change where you aim on the cue ball as opposed to changing the degree to which you drop your elbow?! I used to think the exact same thing as you, but when I took lessons and was working on some stuff I learned how to properly execute an extreme follow shot without dropping your elbow. I never, in a million years, would have thought that I could ever aim that high on the cueball and not miscue...lol.
I think it all comes down to what your priorites are. If you don't have tons of natural talent then I think it would be benificial to have the most efficient and simple fundamentals possible.
It'd be easier to throw the cue or shorten the bridge a bit, hold the cue further.Rackin_Zack said:
But, dropping the elbow should be a natural motion as well.
If Buddy Hall, Parica and Davenport do it, then there's nothing wrong with it.
my .02
I dont think most instructors will say the tip MUST touch the cloth on each shot, as mentioned before it doesnt happen, but the tip should point at the cloth in most cases.
Elbow drop or no elbow drop is always a case for lengthy debate, but IMO if you went into any pool room and took a group of mid level players, taught them to get away from dropping their elbows, in most cases you will see noticeable improvements in their games.
I think there is a misconception when talking about not dropping the elbow. While no drop is what people teach, you will see a small amount of drop in almost every player. But the key is what is causing the drop. If it is pulled down a small bit from the momentum of the stroke I dont think this is a stroke killer. But if the drop is extreme and an actual movement in and of it self I think there is plenty of room for improvement.
I guess I would also say when the elbow drops makes a big difference. If the drop is prior to contact I think the player would be in more trouble than if it was after the cueball was gone (forcing an extended follow through).
I dont think most instructors will say the tip MUST touch the cloth on each shot, as mentioned before it doesnt happen, but the tip should point at the cloth in most cases.
Elbow drop or no elbow drop is always a case for lengthy debate, but IMO if you went into any pool room and took a group of mid level players, taught them to get away from dropping their elbows, in most cases you will see noticeable improvements in their games.
I think there is a misconception when talking about not dropping the elbow. While no drop is what people teach, you will see a small amount of drop in almost every player. But the key is what is causing the drop. If it is pulled down a small bit from the momentum of the stroke I dont think this is a stroke killer. But if the drop is extreme and an actual movement in and of it self I think there is plenty of room for improvement.
I guess I would also say when the elbow drops makes a big difference. If the drop is prior to contact I think the player would be in more trouble than if it was after the cueball was gone (forcing an extended follow through).
JoeyInCali said:
Joey, I don't think there is anything wrong with it at all. I think it's more a matter of what is easier to consistantly repeat. Hell, you can be a world class player with any stroke if you repeat it the exact same way every time. I was basically just saying that no elbow drop could possibly be more easily repeatable. Then again, I still have a lot of work to do on my stroke!
Zack
I agree with Celtics assessment. I also think you can play at the highest levels with both strokes.
Watch a tape of Mikey Sigel and see the major league dipping of his tip. My own stroke is almost identical to that -the elbow never drops and the tip will eventually touch the cloth on all normal shots with extended follow through.
Buddy Hall dips too. I can't tell what Efren is doing, but my guess is he dips.
Niels Feijen is an almost perfect example of Celtics preferred stroke. Level tip though the cue ball and he holds it there on all shots with an elbow drop though the cue ball. Earl seems to be in this league as well.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both. The dipping stroke seems to be part of the finesse game, the elbow drop stroke seems to be part of the power game.
Chris
Watch a tape of Mikey Sigel and see the major league dipping of his tip. My own stroke is almost identical to that -the elbow never drops and the tip will eventually touch the cloth on all normal shots with extended follow through.
Buddy Hall dips too. I can't tell what Efren is doing, but my guess is he dips.
Niels Feijen is an almost perfect example of Celtics preferred stroke. Level tip though the cue ball and he holds it there on all shots with an elbow drop though the cue ball. Earl seems to be in this league as well.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both. The dipping stroke seems to be part of the finesse game, the elbow drop stroke seems to be part of the power game.
Chris
Purdman
Banned
What ever works for you
Your elbow joint works like a hinge. Your shoulder rotates. If you hit the cue ball while your elbow is at 90 deg. , And don't drop your elbow, the cue tip will be close if not on the cloth. If you take a paper towel inner roll and hold the cue in the set position, 1/4 in. from cb, with elbow on the 90, grip the bridge so the cue won't slide, move the roll up and down the cue, you will notice two things. The cue dips on the back swing as well as the forward stroke. AH, but also notice, there is a sweet spot where the cue stays level for about four inches. You want to be in this sweet spot when you contact the cb. I know a lot of players who drop the elbow. I tell my students that if they can stand on their head and never miss, don't change a thing! JMHO
Purdman
Your elbow joint works like a hinge. Your shoulder rotates. If you hit the cue ball while your elbow is at 90 deg. , And don't drop your elbow, the cue tip will be close if not on the cloth. If you take a paper towel inner roll and hold the cue in the set position, 1/4 in. from cb, with elbow on the 90, grip the bridge so the cue won't slide, move the roll up and down the cue, you will notice two things. The cue dips on the back swing as well as the forward stroke. AH, but also notice, there is a sweet spot where the cue stays level for about four inches. You want to be in this sweet spot when you contact the cb. I know a lot of players who drop the elbow. I tell my students that if they can stand on their head and never miss, don't change a thing! JMHO
Purdman
Totally agree. I noticed this while practising my strokes thru a bottle opening and hitting boiled fruits. MAUHAHAHAHA. actually the tip goes in an S arc if there's no elbow drop. with elbow drop, it goes in a cresent.
still, everyone's different. i think the key here is level cue on point of contact to CB.
still, everyone's different. i think the key here is level cue on point of contact to CB.
DennyS said:
Right, and just like you and a couple of others here, it's just your opinion too. Now, let's say that I was taught by one of the best players in the world, a champion who has won countless tournaments, played on TV quite a few times, is a master at 3-cushion, and who has beaten every single top player out there countless times told me that it is a natural part of the stroke to slightly drop your elbow on many shots. And then, lets say someone who has just been teaching pool for a long time tells me that my elbow should not move a millimeter. Who do you think I am going to listen to? The champion, of course. I've already mentioned who that player is.
As for letting the tip dip, this is related to elbow drop, but not entirely. Of course we all realize here that 99% of the pros out there drop their elbows in some way or another. And it is also safe to say that 99% of the pros out there keep their tips level (on most shots), which includes Efren, Archer, Allison Fisher, Corr, Bustamante, Davis, YOU NAME IT. So, now that I have cleared that up for you, am I still offering advice, or am I just giving statistics and reaching an obvious conclusion? You tell me, sir.
Once again, for the last time, my point is that if just about everyone is doing something in common, HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY CALL THAT A FLAW!? I am NOT trying to tell people what to do and how to play, I am simply making my point, and it is a very valid point at that. Your argument, however, is invalid, simply because what you are calling a flaw is something that MASTERS of the game use.
You are arguing against logic here. I never said that your tip should NOT dip, I am simply stating that your logic is flawed by calling something a flaw which in actuality, IS NOT. Sheesh!!
I think it's best to do what's natural as far as elbow drop is concerned. Most of my strokes are "without" elbow drop. I put quotes because I don't think anyone can shoot with elbow not dropping at least a little. However, on those power shots where you need a little more follow through, the elbow will drop a little further and that's no problem at all for me. However, if I drop it *prior* to contact, then the cue ball might get to the next table, LOL.
CaptainJR said:
Well, nobody really replied to my post and I'm sort of curious why.
The one thing that I see is that the thread was titled 'Do you dip the cue on follow-through?' and my post sort of addressed that. But I see that the current subject is the dropping of the elbow. I don't even know if my elbow drops. Fred, does my elbow drop?
Two read between the lines of my above post which shows that the tip does dip, no matter what. Even if you drop your elbow, the tip has to move toward the cloth unless you raise your bridge hand. Unless?
Let me ask this. Do you all think that your stick at your bridge is above the top of the side of the table when you set up for a follow shot? I don't think mine is. That is why I say the tip must drop, since even if you drop your elbow, the butt of the stick can't go below the side of the table.
So if your tip is going to dip anyway, whether you drop your elbow or not, I certainly wouldn't put any effort into trying to learn to drop the elbow. If that is what comes naturally to you and your stoke is not suffering because of it then fine. But if your having some problems it might not be a bad idea to give making sure your elbow doesn't drop a try, since it is extra movement and it really has no purpose because your tip is going to dip anyway.
Last edited: