Do you factor in a leave in event you miss this type of shot?

[poolplayer2093]

I agree, but....how would you play safe?

The only safe shot I see is thinning the right side of the 9, and going downtable with the CB. If you do that, you're very likely to leave a similar shot to the one you were just looking at....And wouldn't you feel like a dumbass if the guy drilled the bank like it was a hanger? And wouldn't you think, at least fleetingly, "I should've done that"?

(Btw, I don't mean "you" you, I mean the general "you".)

you could do the half ass quarter ball hit and leave a short rail bank or you could shoot it 5 rails (4 if you make it) and leave your guy the same basic shot (if it doesn't go)

it's basically this shot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo1iDT6annw

if you miss there's a real good chance you won't sell out

 

[themack]

The second shot that KK9 posted comes up all the time, and i ALWAYS make sure i try to bank it on the short side of the pocket with the speed to land in the middle of the end rail just like he showed. I would think its pretty insane to just let it rip. The guys that just let it rip and don't care where the balls end up are nuts, and probably lose a lot more games than they should. They are the kind of guys i love to play.

Also, saying there no missing to the "pro" side is also crazy. If i have a tough thin cut on the 9, I'll make sure i cut it to the overcut side (even though i don't intend to miss) so if i do miss it banks back to the middle of the end rail (in that direction at least)

 

[poolplayer2093]

The second shot that KK9 posted comes up all the time, and i ALWAYS make sure i try to bank it on the short side of the pocket with the speed to land in the middle of the end rail just like he showed. I would think its pretty insane to just let it rip. The guys that just let it rip and don't care where the balls end up are nuts, and probably lose a lot more games than they should. They are the kind of guys i love to play.

Also, saying there no missing to the "pro" side is also crazy. If i have a tough thin cut on the 9, I'll make sure i cut it to the overcut side (even though i don't intend to miss) so if i do miss it banks back to the middle of the end rail (in that direction at least)

you miss that ball short and more often then not, usually when you need it to stop funny, it'll stop right in front of the side pocket

 

[mullyman]

The second shot that KK9 posted comes up all the time, and i ALWAYS make sure i try to bank it on the short side of the pocket with the speed to land in the middle of the end rail just like he showed. I would think its pretty insane to just let it rip. The guys that just let it rip and don't care where the balls end up are nuts, and probably lose a lot more games than they should. They are the kind of guys i love to play.

Also, saying there no missing to the "pro" side is also crazy. If i have a tough thin cut on the 9, I'll make sure i cut it to the overcut side (even though i don't intend to miss) so if i do miss it banks back to the middle of the end rail (in that direction at least)

Again, if you are that accurate then you might as well just go ahead and make it. Hell, you have enough confidence to bank it to one side of the pocket or the other, from 9 feet away so why would you even think about missing it?

Again, this is one of those shots that so many bad things can happen. If you garble your mind up with so many different things "I need to put the cueball here, I need to hit it to this side of the pocket, I need to hit it with such and such speed so it doesn't stop near a pocket etc...etc..." then you're not really concentrating on making it. There is a huge difference between, as you say, "letting 'er rip" and focusing on not missing. I personally have confidence in my banking skills. I wouldn't be playing to miss this shot. Sure, I've swung at them before and missed, plenty of times. I've also made it plenty of times. I've also gotten very fortunate plenty of times by not leaving a good shot. I've also gotten unfortunate and left a good shot. Also, this is one shot. I hope you're smarter than judging someone's entire ability over one shot selection.
MULLY
as for your missing on the pro side comment, we're not discussing thinly cutting a ball here. We're talking about banking it under you from 9 feet away. Huge, huge, huge difference.

 

[mullyman]

I understand what you're saying, although my strategy is different and that's OK by me for my skill level (strong B, low A, and I only play 9 footers). If I say "self, you're less than good odds here, the last thing to do is put a bow on your leave." I evaluate the potential '2-way', such that if I miss, can I leave it tough?

As another example, here's a shot I will again favor banking short. I'm trying to make it (I know that sounds contradictory and to an extent it is), but I'm going to factor into my shot:

a) speed
b) not banking long

I "program myself" before getting down on the shot and then try to make it without over-cutting it.

CueTable Help

This isn't another example, this is an entirely different situation. With this one, yeah, you can play the speed and angle of the shot so that if you miss it stops similar to what you posted. The first one though? I think not. Banking that first one takes commitment. If you get safe after missing, consider yourself fortunate.
MULLY

 

[themack]

To the two people that commented on my post, I just want to say that I mentioned in the first line of my original post "in the second shot that KK9 posted" meaning the short cross bank where he shows making it land in the middle of the short rail. On the 9 foot one, that one is just too tough a shot to make consistently and much better off playing a safe probably by just thinning the 9 and bringing the cueball to the opposite end of the table.

 

[mullyman]

You have a tough shot for the win. On this shot, and others similar, do you think about making sure you don't bank long (meaning, do not hit the long rail first and sell out)? And do you think about speed such that if you bank short (as illustrated), the 9 and the cue ball are on opposite sides without the 9 sitting in front of a pocket?

Or do you just go for it and let the chips fall where they may?

CueTable Help

By the way, the leave that you show here after missing, with the 9 on one side and the cue ball on the other, I'm banking that cross side all day long and I favor myself to make that more than miss it.
MULLY
unless of course you're playing to freeze both balls to the rail....again, if you're that accurate you might as well just make the ball on the first shot. hehe!!

 

[TX_CLC]

I always plan on my leave, even shooting a straight in 9 ball. I try to leave the ball on a rail or something. You never know when something crazy can go wrong so I always try to leave the cue ball in a tough spot just in case.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I always plan on my leave, even shooting a straight in 9 ball. I try to leave the ball on a rail or something. You never know when something crazy can go wrong so I always try to leave the cue ball in a tough spot just in case.

People take a legitimate position asking "why busy your mind with something that takes away some concentration to simply pot the ball?" and I respond "I don't allow this strategy to adversely affect my shot". I 'program' my CB hit/speed/english BEFORE I get down on the shot and when I get down, I focus on making the shot.

Hey, we all miss. I believe in putting a contingency plan in the back of my mind. I believe it works. It can drive an opponent crazy when they think it was dumb luck that I missed yet they were left a turd leave.



We have 2/3 of voters saying they at least somewhat factor in a leave on this shot, yet we have some experienced players taking the other strategy. Interesting stuff.

 

[mullyman]

I always plan on my leave, even shooting a straight in 9 ball. I try to leave the ball on a rail or something. You never know when something crazy can go wrong so I always try to leave the cue ball in a tough spot just in case.

You may see a lot of that "crazy" stuff stop happening if you stop playing position off the 9-ball. If you have a reasonable shot on the 9 you shouldn't be playing anything other than that stripe ball into a pocket.
MULLY
only saying this because you said you position the cb even on a straight in shot.

 

[sr 9ball]

i used to factor in the leave when i was younger. but i realized that sometimes my focus was on the leave. and i was missing the shot.
so now i focus 100% on making the shot or playing the safe. never second guess yourself is the key when your down on a shot!

 

[ShootingArts]

factoring it all in

People take a legitimate position asking "why busy your mind with something that takes away some concentration to simply pot the ball?" and I respond "I don't allow this strategy to adversely affect my shot". I 'program' my CB hit/speed/english BEFORE I get down on the shot and when I get down, I focus on making the shot.

Hey, we all miss. I believe in putting a contingency plan in the back of my mind. I believe it works. It can drive an opponent crazy when they think it was dumb luck that I missed yet they were left a turd leave.



We have 2/3 of voters saying they at least somewhat factor in a leave on this shot, yet we have some experienced players taking the other strategy. Interesting stuff.

On a bank shot there are at least three ways to shoot to have the best chance of making it. If we start with various combinations of the ways to shoot for center opening then we have a whole bunch of ways to shoot the shot while giving ourselves the best chance of making it. I might modify speed and angle a bit with the thought it will be more likely to make for a tough leave if I miss, but the new speed and angle still direct the ball towards the center of the window to make the ball.

If I am thinking I have to hit the pocket or the safe rail the odds are about 376 to one that I am going to hit the point between them!

Hu

 

[Robert Raiford]

There are several safety options in this kind of situation depending on the exact position of the balls, and frequently they can be higher percentage than the bank (especially on a tough table).

But if you're going to take the bank - a good choice in the diagram on a reasonable table - then I say play it 100% to make with whatever hit/speed/spin you're most comfortable with to maximize your chance for success. Reducing your make percentage for a 2-way shot doesn't guarantee a safe if you miss, and missing playing completely openly doesn't guarantee selling out either (those pocket points can surprise you at any speed).

Btw, one speed tradeoff besides pocket size and comfort level that hasn't been mentioned yet is roll-off. Higher speed reduces potential roll off due to an unlevel or warped table bed, debris on the cloth, poorly seamed slates or unintended sidespin on the CB (or even old balls in terrible condition).

You'll even see some good players check the ball path before slow-rolling balls, and pick up or sweep aside anything that looks like trouble. Sang Lee would sometimes do this in 3-cushion for the final leg between the rail and the scoring ball because he knew the CB would be traveling slowly at that point.

Robert

p.s. I have an irrational affinity for the position since I fired in that 9-ball bank to win my first 9-ball tournament 20 years ago (a tournament I foolishly blew my last $20 on as a starving college student). Perhaps I'd evaluate it differently now if I had missed!

 

[TX_CLC]

You may see a lot of that "crazy" stuff stop happening if you stop playing position off the 9-ball. If you have a reasonable shot on the 9 you shouldn't be playing anything other than that stripe ball into a pocket.
MULLY
only saying this because you said you position the cb even on a straight in shot.

Mully - I somewhat agree with you in the fact that you should always be focused on making the ball first. I believe a lot of people miss shots becuase they are too concerned about position. But I also think people lose because they don't control the cue ball and scratch. Trust me if I have a straight in shot on the 9 ball I am shooting it and stopping the cue ball. I would not try to cheat the pocket to get an angle to hit a rail. I was just exaggerating my statement above. My main point is I always want to know what the cue ball is going to do after I MAKE the shot.

 

[dabarbr]

People take a legitimate position asking "why busy your mind with something that takes away some concentration to simply pot the ball?" and I respond "I don't allow this strategy to adversely affect my shot". I 'program' my CB hit/speed/english BEFORE I get down on the shot and when I get down, I focus on making the shot.

Hey, we all miss. I believe in putting a contingency plan in the back of my mind. I believe it works. It can drive an opponent crazy when they think it was dumb luck that I missed yet they were left a turd leave.



We have 2/3 of voters saying they at least somewhat factor in a leave on this shot, yet we have some experienced players taking the other strategy. Interesting stuff.

Cue ball positioning on the winning ball will reap rewards in the long run for the reason that you mentioned.

There is another reason to position the cue ball that I believe is beneficial when shooting the final ball other than to leave something difficult just in case something goes wrong.

When we get to the final ball, since there is no position involved our mind will have a tendency to change gears and create a void that will allow negative thoughts into our mind. Such thoughts like don't scratch, don't hit it too hard, or useless thoughts like just "make this and I win", etc. What is needed is the same concentration that we had on the previous shot. So by positioning the cue ball to a specific location we keep our mind busy with positive thoughts.

 

[mullyman]

Cue ball positioning on the winning ball will reap rewards in the long run for the reason that you mentioned.

There is another reason to position the cue ball that I believe is beneficial when shooting the final ball other than to leave something difficult just in case something goes wrong.

When we get to the final ball, since there is no position involved our mind will have a tendency to change gears and create a void that will allow negative thoughts into our mind. Such thoughts like don't scratch, don't hit it too hard, or useless thoughts like just "make this and I win", etc. What is needed is the same concentration that we had on the previous shot. So by positioning the cue ball to a specific location we keep our mind busy with positive thoughts.

I agree with this to a point. After playing thousands of games you see just about every screwy thing that can happen or some variant of it. Yes, there are certain shots on the 9 that you need to be careful with whitey. Like trying to come around 2 rails taking it up table. You need to be aware of that corner scratch and pay attention to it. Or when the 9 is frozen to the end rail and you cut it from about a 45 degree angle or so, how many times have you carelessly shot it and watch the cue ball scratch in the side? So yeah, there are definite shots that need care, but there are tons more where trying to do anything with the cue ball is unnecessary and you shoul focus entirely on pocketing the 9.
MULLY

 

[dabarbr]

I agree with this to a point. After playing thousands of games you see just about every screwy thing that can happen or some variant of it. Yes, there are certain shots on the 9 that you need to be careful with whitey. Like trying to come around 2 rails taking it up table. You need to be aware of that corner scratch and pay attention to it. Or when the 9 is frozen to the end rail and you cut it from about a 45 degree angle or so, how many times have you carelessly shot it and watch the cue ball scratch in the side? So yeah, there are definite shots that need care, but there are tons more where trying to do anything with the cue ball is unnecessary and you shoul focus entirely on pocketing the 9.
MULLY

I agree that you don't want to do too much with the cue ball if it jeopardizes pocketing the object ball. Most of us know our limitations in these situations.

I firmly believe that you need to approach the game winning shot with the same concentration that got you there. By locating the cue ball in the final shot with the same emphasis given to all the other shots, we keep the concentration at the same level. If it can be positioned to a location without too much effort for the just in case that KK9 says then it should be done.

I see many top players after shooting such a shot glance back to see if they positioned the cue ball to the spot they wanted. Personally I like to guess where the cue ball will end up after a top player makes the game ball to see if he put it where I would. Most times I guess right. For me it just makes the shot complete to see the cue ball wind up exactly where I want it.

IMO putting an extra strain in pocketing the final ball many times results in a miss due to the change in our mental process.

 

[Neil]

................

 

[mullyman]

I agree that you don't want to do too much with the cue ball if it jeopardizes pocketing the object ball. Most of us know our limitations in these situations.

I firmly believe that you need to approach the game winning shot with the same concentration that got you there. By locating the cue ball in the final shot with the same emphasis given to all the other shots, we keep the concentration at the same level. If it can be positioned to a location without too much effort for the just in case that KK9 says then it should be done.

I see many top players after shooting such a shot glance back to see if they positioned the cue ball to the spot they wanted. Personally I like to guess where the cue ball will end up after a top player makes the game ball to see if he put it where I would. Most times I guess right. For me it just makes the shot complete to see the cue ball wind up exactly where I want it.

IMO putting an extra strain in pocketing the final ball many times results in a miss due to the change in our mental process.

Ok, I went to cuetable and I concede that I also keep whitey in mind, but I'm not playing any position with it, I'm just keeping it out of a pocket. Once it takes the course I set it on I don't worry too much past that. For the first shot with the spotted cueball, I've scratched in the upper corner enough to know that I don't need to hit it that hard. Once it's on it's course and not scratching in that lower corner or the upper one I don't care where it goes.

Cueball A, sorry, I didn't extend that line out all the way but I play that to hit the end rail and bounce off. I don't want to baby a shot like that into the side but I also don't want the cue ball going full table length and scratching in that bottom corner. I also refrain from using any top spin to keep it out of that upper corner. Again, once it hits that end rail I don't care about it anymore because I didn't hit it hard enough for it to go too far off that cushion.

Cueball B, I take care not to put any side, top, or bottom on it. Those side pockets come into play. I also don't hit it hard enough to go all the way up table for the scratch in the corner.

So, I apologize, I do in fact think about the cue ball, but I'm not trying to position it anywhere other than not in a pocket.
MULLY

CueTable Help