Do you try to "pop" the CB on the break?

[Neil]

Maybe you need to go watch some of his videos. He is clearly popping the cue ball.

Yes, he also has the back end jacked up like he says not to do in the articles.

If you really think it changes things, then do it. No studies have shown that it does give a better spread. Almost all of the people that have spent a fair amount of time studying it have stated that it is better to use as level a stroke as possible and not hop it.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Yes, he also has the back end jacked up like he says not to do in the articles.

If you really think it changes things, then do it. No studies have shown that it does give a better spread. Almost all of the people that have spent a fair amount of time studying it have stated that it is better to use as level a stroke as possible and not hop it.

I don't think you're even capable to talking on this subject. In a few of the videos, he hits with a non jacked up stroke, causing the cue ball to hop (pop) backwards off the rack, and squat in the center of the table.

I don't think anyone is really saying that jacking up the back end of the cue will make you break better, unless you have no power in your break to begin with. If you have power, just the impeding of the rail causes the tip to strike downward on the ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxZP-JS4g5s

Look at the cue at the point of contact - almost level. He even hits the rail with his cue. You're speaking outside of your league. Show me the quotes from people that say a level stroke with cue ball pop is bad and that a level stroke without cue ball pop is good.

 

[Neil]

I don't think you're even capable to talking on this subject. In a few of the videos, he hits with a non jacked up stroke, causing the cue ball to hop (pop) backwards off the rack, and squat in the center of the table.

I don't think anyone is really saying that jacking up the back end of the cue will make you break better, unless you have no power in your break to begin with. If you have power, just the impeding of the rail causes the tip to strike downward on the ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxZP-JS4g5s

Look at the cue at the point of contact - almost level. He even hits the rail with his cue. You're speaking outside of your league. Show me the quotes from people that say a level stroke with cue ball pop is bad and that a level stroke without cue ball pop is good.

Your right, I don't know anything about pool. Please provide us with more great insights besides making the ball hop is a good thing to do.

And, by the way, no one said making it hop is a bad thing. I did say it is totally unnecessary and can cause other problems. Also, we aren't talking about leaving the table a little. It will do that on almost every shot. We are talking about making it jump up in the air at contact.

 

[Black-Balled]

Your right, I don't know anything about pool. Please provide us with more great insights besides making the ball hop is a good thing to do.

And, by the way, no one said making it hop is a bad thing. I did say it is totally unnecessary and can cause other problems. Also, we aren't talking about leaving the table a little. It will do that on almost every shot. We are talking about making it jump up in the air at contact.

I think we are (were?) actually talking about increased hop BEFORE rack contact.

Perhaps the different talk topics are the sources of opposing beliefs?

 

[Neil]

I think we are (were?) actually talking about increased hop BEFORE rack contact.

Perhaps the different talk topics are the sources of opposing beliefs?

Nobody is going to take a break shot and not have the cb leave the table at all. It's going to hop. It's a matter of how much.

 

[Black-Balled]

Nobody is going to take a break shot and not have the cb leave the table at all. It's going to hop. It's a matter of how much.

Yes, but it is the INCREaSED hop that results in a different break reaction from a flatter impact.

Further, the increased pop sometimes yields better results than a harder/ flatter break.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Nobody is going to take a break shot and not have the cb leave the table at all. It's going to hop. It's a matter of how much.

Actually in the WPC several years back, when they tapped the balls in for the rack, I watched people break under 12 mph...maybe even 10 mph. It is likely under those conditions that the cb didn't leave the table much at all.

I think the original poster's point has somehow been lost. The question was only if it was good to pop the rack, and I believed this was defined as making the CB hop and squat. Here is the very simply way to look at it: who has the best break in the world these days? What does his break do?

If you can accomplish *the same thing* without hopping the ball, then why are we not seeing this being done by pros.

Bottom line: the hop creates a *dfferent* reaction in the rack, and the CB. No data has been collected as of yet to determine if it is a benefit or not. Unless of course you consider the opinions of the vast majority of pro players who say "Shane has the best 10 ball break".

Remember, knowledge consists of pure reason and practical reason...theory and practice so to speak. Whoever believe one trumps the other is already on the road to foolishness.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Nobody is going to take a break shot and not have the cb leave the table at all. It's going to hop. It's a matter of how much.

You're going in circles here. First you say cue ball hope is bad. Now you say it happens no matter what. What side of the fence do you want to take?

The idea of raising the back end of your cue to get the pop is bad. That is agreed upon. Are you trying to say that you will hold back your break, thus preventing some of the more wired balls in the rack to not drop? If so, that's your opinion. As much as I've asked you to provide information showing that a pop on the break is bad, you've failed to showcase anything to the sort. Dr. Dave's videos that I've watched have shown , multiple times, that the cue will pop without raising the backend of the cue. That slo-mo of SVB shows how level his cue is at impact.

You can deny the evidence all you want, but adding a pop to the break allows you to hit them slightly softer since you aren't trying to plow through the balls with power. I don't disagree that balls will travel farther/faster if the cue ball doesn't pop, but their lines to the pocket won't be the same.

Believe what you want, but before you go stating things as fact make sure your opinion and the fact are true. Stating things that just obviously aren't true doesn't help your argument.

 

[Wright Shot]

This is my most used method in 9 ball. You do have to be careful to not put too much bottom or you will end up scratching in the head corners.

Chris

 

[KRJ]

Look at the cue at the point of contact - almost level. He even hits the rail with his cue. You're speaking outside of your league. Show me the quotes from people that say a level stroke with cue ball pop is bad and that a level stroke without cue ball pop is good.

Great video .... and correct, he is in fact leveling off his cue, but also hitting above center on the cb, which is what gives the "pop" on the cb....basically, hitting top hard, drives the cb down first. If you stop it, you can see that he is hitting above center, and thus the cueball is bouncing down table. I'm sure Dr. Dave has an explanation for the physics of this.... I said before I can jump over 4 pennies.... but looking at SVB looks like he can jump over a roll of quarters

 

[Dudley]

Good post. I agree 100%.

CB hop looks cool, and it is often an indicator of a powerful break, but is certainly not something one should not try to create (e.g., by elevating the cue) ... that just wastes energy.

The most important attributes of a good break are:
- getting a square hit on the 1 ball.
- using only as much power as you can control.
- squatting the rock as close to the center of the table as possible.

For info, advice, and demonstrations on how to do these things, see:

break technique and equipment advice resource page
CB hop and squat resource page
NV D.14 - Pool Break Technique Advice - from Vol-III of the Billiard University instructional DVD series

Enjoy,
Dave

More thoughts on the subject...

In my limited, not exactly scientific testing with the breakspeed app I discovered that my fastest speeds clocked were always achieved when the cue ball barely left the table after contact with the rack.

My theory is that when you hit the ball while jacked up not only does it travel a greater distance to the rack--> (arc vs straight line) it also has more initial friction when it leaves it's resting spot from the downward force. If you want to impart the most energy into the rack as you can a hopping break is inefficient.

That being said the flat cue ball theory has absolutely nothing to do with making a ball except that the balls will roll further.

Dudley

 

[bdorman]

As the OP, I would like to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread.

I have read your thoughtful respones to my question very careful.

I've concluded that I will continue to "pop" my CB on the break because:

1) it looks cool
2) it feels good


Thanks again!

 

[KMRUNOUT]

More thoughts on the subject...

In my limited, not exactly scientific testing with the breakspeed app I discovered that my fastest speeds clocked were always achieved when the cue ball barely left the table after contact with the rack.

My theory is that when you hit the ball while jacked up not only does it travel a greater distance to the rack--> (arc vs straight line) it also has more initial friction when it leaves it's resting spot from the downward force. If you want to impart the most energy into the rack as you can a hopping break is inefficient.

That being said the flat cue ball theory has absolutely nothing to do with making a ball except that the balls will roll further.

Dudley

Dudley,

You have WAY insufficient data to draw the conclusion you have. I'm not saying you're wrong, only that your conclusion is not necessarily true based on the data you have provided. I actually have a similar experience with the break speed app. My very fastest break ever resulted in the CB stopping dead about 6" from the rack with what appeared to be zero hop. I believe the explanation for this is that our best break speeds usually come from a dead center hit on the CB, where the least amount of energy is spent spinning the ball, and the force vector parallel to the table is proportionally the greatest (closest to 100% of the forward force). But I don't think anyone was arguing that the purpose for popping the rack was to achieve the greatest CB speed.

I believe it is also a baseless conclusion (not just on your part) that you should want to "impart the most energy into the rack as you can". If your sole objective is to log the fastest break speed, then sure. If on the other hand you are interested in pocketing a ball reliably, controlling the cue ball, and getting a consistently runable spread...I really don't think max energy into the rack is the way to go to achieve those results (unless as I said in a previous post you have a very weak break and struggle to hit 15 or 16 mph...in this case you might benefit from more energy).

I think a great test would be if we had video of say 10 of your breaks from the time you got your fastest speed. Of course we would have used a super high speed camera. We could slo-mo the contact with the rack, and see how much hop you get. We could then rate the results of the break on the important variables we choose (CB control, balls pocketed, quality of spread), and plot these things against amount of hop, or amount of speed, or both. If we had like 10,000 breaks from different people, ideally with the magic rack...perhaps then we are getting close to a "scientific" study, and at that point the claims all these people are making might have some actual weight.

I value your input to the conversation, please don't take this any other way. I wish everyone would post what their experiences are. I just don't think we as a group are very close at all to any definitive answers (all though some might disagree :wink

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

As the OP, I would like to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread.

I have read your thoughtful respones to my question very careful.

I've concluded that I will continue to "pop" my CB on the break because:

1) it looks cool
2) it feels good


Thanks again!

NICE!!! I concur! Plus for me, I will add the other benefit of 3) I like the way it activates the rack, and 4) I find the CB control easier, and 5) I like the layouts I get.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Black-Balled]

As the OP, I would like to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread.

I have read your thoughtful respones to my question very careful.

I've concluded that I will continue to "pop" my CB on the break because:

1) it looks cool
2) it feels good


Thanks again!

Could you please clarify about what you meand by 'hop'?

Was it the cb leaving the table before or after impact?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Could you please clarify about what you meand by 'hop'?

Was it the cb leaving the table before or after impact?

I don't believe you can make the CB leave the table after impact without it leaving the table before. There are two basic ways to achieve the hop *after impact*. Both methods involve the CB leaving the table *before impact*. The first is the SVB method, which is to come through the CB with a level stroke but above center. This causes the cueball to jump up slightly so that when it reaches the one ball, it is either still in the air, or just bounced off the table and is in the air, either going up or going down. The second method is to purposely jack up on the cueball, literally jumping it into the rack (or to a spot in front of the rack and allowing it to bounce into the rack.)

In either case, the CB is airborne before it gets to the rack. The SVB method requires you to hit the ball harder to achieve the effect (say low 20's or so). The second method can cause the ball to hop at like 15-16 mph with a slightly elevated cue, or even slower with a more elevated cue.

Tonight I'm gonna try and video both methods and post them. Don't anyone hold their breath though...I've never posted a video and might not spend the effort lol.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Black-Balled]

I don't believe you can make the CB leave the table after impact without it leaving the table before. There are two basic ways to achieve the hop *after impact*. Both methods involve the CB leaving the table *before impact*. The first is the SVB method, which is to come through the CB with a level stroke but above center. This causes the cueball to jump up slightly so that when it reaches the one ball, it is either still in the air, or just bounced off the table and is in the air, either going up or going down. The second method is to purposely jack up on the cueball, literally jumping it into the rack (or to a spot in front of the rack and allowing it to bounce into the rack.)

In either case, the CB is airborne before it gets to the rack. The SVB method requires you to hit the ball harder to achieve the effect (say low 20's or so). The second method can cause the ball to hop at like 15-16 mph with a slightly elevated cue, or even slower with a more elevated cue.

Tonight I'm gonna try and video both methods and post them. Don't anyone hold their breath though...I've never posted a video and might not spend the effort lol.

KMRUNOUT

No disagreement there, but I still want to know which one he referred to with the original question:

?..I changed my break address to hit a little "down" on the CB. It causes the CB to pop up a bit (or more) when it hits the one-ball...

 

[Dudley]

Dudley,

You have WAY insufficient data to draw the conclusion you have. I'm not saying you're wrong, only that your conclusion is not necessarily true based on the data you have provided. I actually have a similar experience with the break speed app. My very fastest break ever resulted in the CB stopping dead about 6" from the rack with what appeared to be zero hop. I believe the explanation for this is that our best break speeds usually come from a dead center hit on the CB, where the least amount of energy is spent spinning the ball, and the force vector parallel to the table is proportionally the greatest (closest to 100% of the forward force). But I don't think anyone was arguing that the purpose for popping the rack was to achieve the greatest CB speed.

I believe it is also a baseless conclusion (not just on your part) that you should want to "impart the most energy into the rack as you can". If your sole objective is to log the fastest break speed, then sure. If on the other hand you are interested in pocketing a ball reliably, controlling the cue ball, and getting a consistently runable spread...I really don't think max energy into the rack is the way to go to achieve those results (unless as I said in a previous post you have a very weak break and struggle to hit 15 or 16 mph...in this case you might benefit from more energy).

I think a great test would be if we had video of say 10 of your breaks from the time you got your fastest speed. Of course we would have used a super high speed camera. We could slo-mo the contact with the rack, and see how much hop you get. We could then rate the results of the break on the important variables we choose (CB control, balls pocketed, quality of spread), and plot these things against amount of hop, or amount of speed, or both. If we had like 10,000 breaks from different people, ideally with the magic rack...perhaps then we are getting close to a "scientific" study, and at that point the claims all these people are making might have some actual weight.

I value your input to the conversation, please don't take this any other way. I wish everyone would post what their experiences are. I just don't think we as a group are very close at all to any definitive answers (all though some might disagree :wink

KMRUNOUT

Thanks for the reply KMR,

I tried to write my post so my theory wasn't overstated. I believe that it is a good thing to put as much energy into the rack that you can with control. The more distance the balls roll the more time/distance they have to find a pocket. This is just one aspect of breaking--> learning how to read the rack and adjust your contact point for different gaps is way more important if you want to make balls on the break.



One reason why the breakspeed app isn't a good test method as it's based on the distance between the cue ball and the rack. (highly problematic variable for the users of the app) Even if you put the cue ball in the same exact spot and racked in the exact same spot depending on how much the cue ball leaves the table the distance traveled will be different.

Not to be nitpicky but I said it was a theory not a conclusion...

Dudley--> Always open to new information

 

[bdorman]

Could you please clarify about what you meand by 'hop'?

Was it the cb leaving the table before or after impact?

By "pop" I mean the CB jumping about 6 inches up after hitting the one-balll.

Technically, the CB "leaves" the table every time it's impacted by the cue. Even with a moderate, non-break shot, the CB skips a bit (about 1/16 - 1/8" and only about 1/64" in height) before rolling on the cloth. But in the original context of the thread I'm refering to popping after contact the apex ball.

 

[Black-Balled]

By "pop" I mean the CB jumping about 6 inches up after hitting the one-balll.

Thanks for clarifying. I take it all back then,