Do You Use "Force Follow" in your games?

[Luxury]

Everyone should be able to shoot a force follow shot, it comes up frequently in every game. In the first link you posted though, (getting from the 1 to the 2) I think the 3rd way he plays it (3 rails) is best way that will produce the most consistent results, but I would choose to just use a fair amount of right spin and hit it smooth rather than power through it like that. When I think of a "force follow" shot I'm picturing either going into balls or the cue ball having to travel a ways before it hits a rail. Not a ton of reason to hit a force follow shot when theres a rail right there to spin off of imo.

Word.


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[ShootingArts]

basically yes

You seem to be saying that any remarkable follow shot must have overspin when it leaves the tip. That is, you are saying that that the bottom of the cue ball is actually moving back towards the shooter right after tip/ball contact.

Is that the point you are trying to make?

Bob, "remarkable" isn't a real clear description of a shot. Also I suspect that there will be some slight initial skid. However, once I get through splitting hairs so that doesn't happen to my reply, I think for a shot to be what I have always seen defined as force follow the cue ball must be spinning at greater than the speed it is rolling when it contacts the object ball. There is slippage between the cue ball and the table cloth. All other spin shots involve slippage, no reason to think high hits can't.

With a skidding cue ball the cue ball leaves on a tangent, ignoring a little cling. With a rolling cue ball, the cue ball takes a little different line but still basically a straight line. With force follow if the object ball isn't hit dead center the cue ball skates sideways, finds traction, and takes off forward again. The forward speed of the cue ball has ben redirected along roughly the tangent line. If the ball is not spinning in the same direction as when struck by the cue ball where does the forward motion that we have all seen at times come from? I have seen this on an open area of the table with no rail involved until after the cue ball accelerates forward. I have also seen the cue ball travel at least fifteen feet after hitting the object ball, striking both end rails.

Considering that initial speed from the cue tip was fairly high the spin might have only been 12% greater. Seems like it would be much more but of course I have never attempted to measure overspin. When I think about it, the speed of the cue ball along the tangent after hitting the object ball has to go somewhere so perhaps the overspin not only imparts forward speed of it's own but redirects this other energy.

I have never really tried to figure out why force follow worked, one of those things that the proof is in the pudding. It works. There can be relatively slow force follow shots but the ones that make highlight reels are the ones with huge cue ball movement.

Hu

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, "remarkable" isn't a real clear description of a shot. Also I suspect that there will be some slight initial skid. However, once I get through splitting hairs so that doesn't happen to my reply, I think for a shot to be what I have always seen defined as force follow the cue ball must be spinning at greater than the speed it is rolling when it contacts the object ball. There is slippage between the cue ball and the table cloth. All other spin shots involve slippage, no reason to think high hits can't.
..

The cue ball will be slipping on the cloth as it comes off the tip if it is not hit at the height that gives immediate smooth rolling. That height has been known for a long time and it has been demonstrated under controlled conditions. That height is 70% of the height of the ball. If you hit higher than that, and do not miscue, the cue ball will have "overspin" or "excess follow". That excess will dissipate as the ball goes across the cloth for the same reason draw dissipates -- the bottom of the ball is rubbing on the cloth. Because excess follow is a lot smaller difference from smooth rolling than draw, it will be gone much sooner than draw turns into follow for the same speed of hit and spin/speed ratio.

In fact the reality of overspin was tested for and shown in the Jacksonville Experiment 20 years ago. Its existence is not in question.

What is in question is the actual utility and frequency of it in actual play. I think those who claim it is important on power follow shots are wrong.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think for a shot to be what I have always seen defined as force follow the cue ball must be spinning at greater than the speed it is rolling when it contacts the object ball.

Unless the OB is very close to the CB, that’s simply impossible - even then it’s a small amount.

And it’s not needed - a fast-moving rolling ball with no overspin has plenty of high speed forward spin to do whatever a force follow shot does.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

Unless the OB is very close to the CB, that’s simply impossible - even then it’s a small amount.

And it’s not needed - a fast-moving rolling ball with no overspin has plenty of high speed forward spin to do whatever a force follow shot does.

pj
chgo

Exactly. More cue stick speed generates more torque. And a fast rolling ball, due to angular momentum, will continue to rotate after it hits another ball or a cushion or whatever.

Here's a good slow motion video showing a fast rolling cb hitting an ob. After impact, the rotating mass of the cb continues rotating around its center. It is not spinning forward when it hits the ob, it's rolling fast, but since it must keep moving after hitting the ob (momentum = mass x velocity) the rotational momentum causes it to start spinning in place until it begins to grab the cloth, and that's when it resumes a natural rolling motion again.

https://youtu.be/swkvO1fXICc

 

[Bob Jewett]

Making the "bend" of the CB is what gives it the shape. The forward spin on the CB gives the bend. I call that force follow but that's me. Typical high English would not cause that. (in my game).

All follow shots curve. If you use a lot of power, the curve is more obvious. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90DvT6uN9Ng
It's important to have the right music playing when attempting such shots.