9 ball is 9 ball. Due to the games speed and made for TV genre it's pretty difficult to change the game. What is wrong with 8 Ball? I think it is a better game by nature. If speed is the main component for 9 Ball then 8 Ball could be played faster with a little adjustment to the game. For example you could play 8 Ball and a miss equals BIH to your opponent.
Does 9-ball today need a fix?
- Thread starter Cori
- Start date
Bob Jewett said:
That would be an interesting way to play, and I'd be willing to give it a try.
Since the pusher is at a disadvantage, would it be fair to say that the non-breaker should be the one to push, regardless of balls made on the break? That way, there is still an advantage to being the breaker, and it would prevent safety breaks.
I'm also thinking that the breaker should rack, because if the incoming player knew he would be the one pushing, he may want a clustered table.
Whatever the solution ends up being, I do think there should be some kind of change in how the racking and breaking play out in 9-ball today.
Cori
Registered
What if 9-ball was more like golf?
If 9-ball was more like golf, then we would add up the points in the end.
Golf is
more widely televised,
more spectators,
more money,
there's no sharking,
you play your best then,
you win with the lowest # of errors.
Where's the luck now, let's take it to the pool table.
I've seen a game called pool table golf but not in the 9-ball format.
Hey you never know, what do you think?
If 9-ball was more like golf, then we would add up the points in the end.
Golf is
more widely televised,
more spectators,
more money,
there's no sharking,
you play your best then,
you win with the lowest # of errors.
Where's the luck now, let's take it to the pool table.
I've seen a game called pool table golf but not in the 9-ball format.
Hey you never know, what do you think?
Cori said:What can we do to change the face of 9-ball to make it better?
Sometimes we might feel robbed when...
we hang the 9-ball and leave the win for the opponent
the opponent breaks and deposits the 9-ball for the win
we are sharked by our opponent and lose on the hill
the conditions might be the reason why we aren't winning
not to mention combo mania
Here are a few reasons why today's 9-ball might need fixing. It's too lucky. Tell me some problems you've encountered in the game. If there are any solutions that you've encountered. What choice do we have? Any ideas?
Well, fixing.. not sure, that may be a bit too strong. For one, as a player, you are in control of what happens. If you hang the 9 (see my name here hehe), YOU did it. That is how 9-ball is played, if only the 9 ball is left for your opponent, they shot it, they win. It's not a fault of the game you missed, but yours (not yours the poster but anyone playing). To fix this, practice more, don't miss. It's commonly know that 9-ball is a shot-making game, more so that the others. Less strategy goes into a rack of 9 than the average game of 8 and for sure 1-p. 9-on the break for the win, maybe, but that is not a 100% rule, many tournaments you need to call the 9 for the win, or even just spot it after the break. Losing on the hill, well that happens in every game. I read about players needing 1 pt. in a race to 150 in straight pool, and losing. I would fiddle with the rules a bit, but not really change too much. For official world rules, maybe get rid of 9 on the break as a win, maybe put in called shots, that's about it.
Bigdogbret said:
TAP TAP..except for the 10 Ball part! (-:
The VAST majority of pro 9 Ball matches are LOST due to unforced errors not won due to luck...EXCEPT in the winner breaks format where it is often (but not always) true that there are no unforced errors when a player is running a pack AND needs a SERIOUS amount of luck to be able to do that.
To run a long pack you need to not only make a ball of the break but also get a makable shot on the lowest ball INCLUDING having a reasonable opportunity to get shape on the next ball. There is a LOT of luck associated with those two things.
Regards,
Jim
Bob Jewett said:
Granted...but pitted rack areas are not a factor in the major pro tour events...unless they tap the racks to begin with.
But to address the major tour and regional tour/amateur issues in one fell swoop...just MOVE THE RACK...break from the box... and ban the soft break (as the new World rules did).
Bingo...no dead wing ball. Problem solved and no need to add a ball which will only add to average rack times and WORSEN the already significant problem of massive editing of TV matches that NO ONE...other than severe ADD sufferers...likes!
(-:
Jim
time for a safe break in nine ball?
Bob,
Sounds like this would punish someone for making a few balls on the break and opening up the table. Then you have to deal with the safe break. Do you permit it? Do you make rules to force a hard break? In the end I think we acknowledge that nine ball is a flawed game best suited for TV and getting people to drop a lot of money in a bar box fast. When we start adding rules to deal with one issue we create new issues.
Hu
Bob,
Sounds like this would punish someone for making a few balls on the break and opening up the table. Then you have to deal with the safe break. Do you permit it? Do you make rules to force a hard break? In the end I think we acknowledge that nine ball is a flawed game best suited for TV and getting people to drop a lot of money in a bar box fast. When we start adding rules to deal with one issue we create new issues.
Hu
Bob Jewett said:
I think requiring four balls to cushions, which is the current normal break rule, is sufficient for that. I disagree that a required push-out necessarily gives the advantage to the seated player. The general theory of push-outs is to make it a 50-50 choice for your opponent, assuming equal ability. If you have a special shot (close jump shot?) push out to it and get an advantage. Each game would start with a difficult decision. I think that's a lot better than the cream-puff run-outs that disfigured the WC9B this year. The main thing you would give up is multi-rack runs by one player, since both players are guaranteed a chance at a shot each rack.ShootingArts said:
Danny Kuykendal said:
Excellent point Danny... And that is exactly what I ask people who pine on that one-pocket is the greatest and most pure of all pool games...
"Why are there six pockets?"
Not to take everyone off the point, but the same is true in straight pool, as far as using the entire table. Most shots are made in the two corner pockets nearest the rack and a couple in the side and maybe one per rack in the opposite corner.
Once a pro gets an open shot in nine ball the game is just too easy. Ten ball is not much different. How many tables did SVB break and run against Cory Duell, 34? Why not use all 15 balls?
It's no wonder the Philipinos beat us so badly when they first come over. They've been playing rotation since they were kids.
I know you're trying to find a remedy for nine ball, but maybe it doesn't exist?
Once a pro gets an open shot in nine ball the game is just too easy. Ten ball is not much different. How many tables did SVB break and run against Cory Duell, 34? Why not use all 15 balls?
It's no wonder the Philipinos beat us so badly when they first come over. They've been playing rotation since they were kids.
I know you're trying to find a remedy for nine ball, but maybe it doesn't exist?
Dawgie said:
You raise an interesting point. 8 Ball is the most played pool game in America...by far...and yet the pro tours all play 9 Ball.
Obviously, from the point of view of spectator popularity, that makes a total of zero sense.
And you may be right that BIH after a miss may be the only way to speed the game up...except that such a rule might cause more safeties to be played since the outcome would almost certainly be better than giving up BIH and that would slow the game down.
Maybe one safety per rack would solve that problem. But you are right that not adopting the most popular pool game as the standard pro event seems to be a fundamentally flawed idea.
Possibly the REAL problem with the lack of mass audience popularity is the theory that playing pool is more of an excuse to gamble or to have something to do while your're drinking so the people who DO it, don't care to WATCH it.
IMHO, that is the CENTRAL problem and has no major solution. But even given that, it doesn't mean that the industry should ignore opportunities to improve its lot relative to the current realities.
Better to get a C- than a D-.
Regards,
Jim
Danny Kuykendal said:
Danny, respectfully, "too easy" is a relative term. If it was too easy, then the reason for winning would be reduced to pure chance...like flipping coins...which is the ultimate of "easy."
But if pure chance controled the outcome of 9 Ball matches, then the wins would be relatively evenly distributed over the 100+ (roughly) players who could be considered full on touring pros.
But of course, that is not the case. In fact, roughly the same 20 players win the majority of money to be won in pro events.
I think that 9 Ball gets a bad rap for having AS MUCH of a luck factor as some think. Cleary it has a luck factor but so does every other game in and outside of the pool arena.
And with a couple simple rules changes, the luck factor in 9 Ball could be reduced considerably.
If it's broke...fix it...don't thrown it in the dumpster!
Regards,
Jim
not quite the point I was trying to make
Bob,
The required push out does take away the advantage of a good break which was my point. Much harder to push out to a safe spot with 5-7 balls left on the table and it wide open. Also, if you must push after the break then the opposing player gets the option of taking the shot or not.
There is often less margin for error on a push out than there is for making a ball. Ideally you push to a shot you can make and the other player can't. In reality you usually push to a low percentage shot and force the other player to choose. However in attempting this it is pretty common to either play a lock-up safety which would be instantly handed back to the breaker or miss position slightly resulting in an easy shot basically giving the incoming player a free shot after the breaker made a great break. Even by your thinking a great break and a push to a 50-50 shot means the breaker must play a 50-50 shot for his third shot or the incoming player gets a 50-50 shot and it is the nonbreaking player's option!
My focus would be on a legal break without making a ball forcing the other player to push and giving me the option. Of course the rules that I saw last didn't require four balls to the rail if you made a ball as I recall so the rush would be on to find a new soft break that pocketed one ball while leaving a cluster for the other player to deal with. Whichever option works best, it doesn't make for good TV or audience appeal.
Hu
Bob,
The required push out does take away the advantage of a good break which was my point. Much harder to push out to a safe spot with 5-7 balls left on the table and it wide open. Also, if you must push after the break then the opposing player gets the option of taking the shot or not.
There is often less margin for error on a push out than there is for making a ball. Ideally you push to a shot you can make and the other player can't. In reality you usually push to a low percentage shot and force the other player to choose. However in attempting this it is pretty common to either play a lock-up safety which would be instantly handed back to the breaker or miss position slightly resulting in an easy shot basically giving the incoming player a free shot after the breaker made a great break. Even by your thinking a great break and a push to a 50-50 shot means the breaker must play a 50-50 shot for his third shot or the incoming player gets a 50-50 shot and it is the nonbreaking player's option!
My focus would be on a legal break without making a ball forcing the other player to push and giving me the option. Of course the rules that I saw last didn't require four balls to the rail if you made a ball as I recall so the rush would be on to find a new soft break that pocketed one ball while leaving a cluster for the other player to deal with. Whichever option works best, it doesn't make for good TV or audience appeal.
Hu
Bob Jewett said:
I'm not sure about that. Of course there are dullards in any audience, but there is a chance to explain to some that part of the game is strategy. This might require an upgrade in commentators.ShootingArts said:
I remember the first few times I saw pool on TV -- Wide World of Sports many years ago. I was fascinated by two things: the idea of not leaving the opponent a shot and the control the players had of the cue ball when they got a shot. This was years before I actually held a pool cue. I think those points don't depend much on the particular game being played. Maybe other viewers are different, and would rather see full-contact nine ball, but then how to explain the huge audiences for snooker where you can easily go 10 minutes between pots?
My main point is that we really don't understand what could be sold on TV, or at least I don't. I do know that the present TV situation in the US for cue sports is just pitiful compared to the rest of the world.
In the interest of the sport, I think that 8 ball for TV makes a ton of sense. I also like the BIH with the one safety idea.
As a lover of straight pool, you could even take 8 ball to an extreme by allowing hits on any ball, call shot, (or actually call pocket) first one to get his or her respective balls pocketed and then pocket the 8 wins. No penalty for using the 8 just like any other ball, and no loss of game for pocketing the 8 early or in the wrong pocket,simply spot it and opponent gets BIH.
Essentially it becomes a single rack game of straight pool with each player having to focus on pocketing their stripe or solid without concern for only playing off those balls. That should speed it up even more.
As a lover of straight pool, you could even take 8 ball to an extreme by allowing hits on any ball, call shot, (or actually call pocket) first one to get his or her respective balls pocketed and then pocket the 8 wins. No penalty for using the 8 just like any other ball, and no loss of game for pocketing the 8 early or in the wrong pocket,simply spot it and opponent gets BIH.
Essentially it becomes a single rack game of straight pool with each player having to focus on pocketing their stripe or solid without concern for only playing off those balls. That should speed it up even more.
I agree about audiences
Bob,
I agree about audiences. They aren't buying what we are selling now. Not eight ball, nine ball, seven ball, speed pool, or anything else we have put in front of US audiences. Speeding up the game doesn't seem to help, I doubt that slowing it down will either but it would be worth a try.
I wish we could get a series of snooker matches over here, maybe with a pair of US commentators dubbed in, maybe try the matches both ways with the original and our commentators.
I don't know what it would take to grow a US audience, at least anything that is in our control. We get little spurts from the right movie now and then but what would it take to elevate it to a mainstream activity or at least mainstream viewing activity?
Hu
Bob,
I agree about audiences. They aren't buying what we are selling now. Not eight ball, nine ball, seven ball, speed pool, or anything else we have put in front of US audiences. Speeding up the game doesn't seem to help, I doubt that slowing it down will either but it would be worth a try.
I wish we could get a series of snooker matches over here, maybe with a pair of US commentators dubbed in, maybe try the matches both ways with the original and our commentators.
I don't know what it would take to grow a US audience, at least anything that is in our control. We get little spurts from the right movie now and then but what would it take to elevate it to a mainstream activity or at least mainstream viewing activity?
Hu
Bob Jewett said:
Bob Jewett said:
I would feel cheated.
I like the idea of Rack your own
Alternate break
Spot balls off the break but continue shooting
call pocket
On the pro level, limit the use of 2 cues... break and stroke.
I love rotation... but I'm not a big fan of 10 ball (not sure why, exactly)... so I would rather play 9, 14.1 or rotation.
just my thoughts....
Jim, it may not be broke, but maybe better games are out there?
Bob, Snooker worked fine in England, but not at this time. Our culture is changing and I believe pool needs to go along with the changes.
You may have enjoyed the safety play as a kid, but maybe you had a more natural inclination towards pocket billiards than the average TV audience?
Pool still remains the only individual game (or sport) that has an actual safety play. Golf, tennis and bowling do not. Can you imagine Tiger Woods hitting into a sand trap and being able to stymie his opponent after his mishap?
Three cushion billiards doesn't even allow safety play. Think of the shots that wouldn't be played if safety play were promoted in three cushion billiards?
Danny K
Bob, Snooker worked fine in England, but not at this time. Our culture is changing and I believe pool needs to go along with the changes.
You may have enjoyed the safety play as a kid, but maybe you had a more natural inclination towards pocket billiards than the average TV audience?
Pool still remains the only individual game (or sport) that has an actual safety play. Golf, tennis and bowling do not. Can you imagine Tiger Woods hitting into a sand trap and being able to stymie his opponent after his mishap?
Three cushion billiards doesn't even allow safety play. Think of the shots that wouldn't be played if safety play were promoted in three cushion billiards?
Danny K
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It's a minority view, but it's how I feel: Require the 9 to be the LAST ball pocketed, if made on the break - spot it and keep shooting or re-rack. It would dramatically reduce the luck factor. Also, let's eliminate the 3-foul rule because all it does is slow down the bracket, create new enemies, fuel arguments, and allow the experienced player to duck forever. Just have a stalemate rule instead.Cori said:What can we do to change the face of 9-ball to make it better?
Sometimes we might feel robbed when...
we hang the 9-ball and leave the win for the opponent
the opponent breaks and deposits the 9-ball for the win
we are sharked by our opponent and lose on the hill
the conditions might be the reason why we aren't winning
not to mention combo mania
Here are a few reasons why today's 9-ball might need fixing. It's too lucky. Tell me some problems you've encountered in the game. If there are any solutions that you've encountered. What choice do we have? Any ideas?