mullyman said:
I am saying all variables the same wxcept one is funsies, one means lots. And the shot choice almost certainly changes.
I don't know which shot is 'right'.
Does anyone actually believe GAMBLING will
- Thread starter CocoboloCowboy
- Start date
I am saying all variables the same wxcept one is funsies, one means lots. And the shot choice almost certainly changes.
I don't know which shot is 'right'.
First... I am not talking about PRO level players. I am referring to local C, B, A and shortstops.
I agree that Gambling can help players improve their game. It also improves their gambling skills, the ability to match up (to make a good game) with others.
But, Gambling boils down to this
You and your opponent
start the match when you want to,
play the game that both agree to,
play on the table both agree to,
play with specific rules both agree to,
play with or without handicaps,
play for a specific amount of cash that is again agreed upon by both (and possibly the backers also)
play on an agreed upon format (race to x, or an 'ahead' match to x)
All points are agreed upon by both players before the match starts.
Not much pressure here.. only with certain conditions during the playing of the games.
Tournament play on the other hand, all the above is DICTATED by the Tournament Director. You have only one choice, "pay the entry fee and play".
Does Gambling help you become a better player? if you only gamble, YES, it will help you either to become a better gambler at matching up, or get you broke because you couldn't learn from your mistakes.
Tournament play can present the players with just as much 'pressure' and 'learning' opportunities than Gambling.
But, you can gamble when ever you want to find someone to match up with, whereas to play in tournaments... you have to wait until they are scheduled.
In Sacramento, there are tournaments 6 nights a week, I don't know of any on Saturday nights.
BTW, if you've ever been to the US Open and the QMasters pool hall after hours, not all the pros are sharpening up their skills by matching up. Some are practicing or catching up on sleep.
At the Derby City Classic, well, gambling sometimes gets in the way of tournament play.
Testing your skills can be accomplish either way (gambling or tournament play) some players will do both, some concentrate on one or the other. Either way, when you play and practice and test your skills, you will become a better player.
I agree that Gambling can help players improve their game. It also improves their gambling skills, the ability to match up (to make a good game) with others.
But, Gambling boils down to this
You and your opponent
start the match when you want to,
play the game that both agree to,
play on the table both agree to,
play with specific rules both agree to,
play with or without handicaps,
play for a specific amount of cash that is again agreed upon by both (and possibly the backers also)
play on an agreed upon format (race to x, or an 'ahead' match to x)
All points are agreed upon by both players before the match starts.
Not much pressure here.. only with certain conditions during the playing of the games.
Tournament play on the other hand, all the above is DICTATED by the Tournament Director. You have only one choice, "pay the entry fee and play".
Does Gambling help you become a better player? if you only gamble, YES, it will help you either to become a better gambler at matching up, or get you broke because you couldn't learn from your mistakes.
Tournament play can present the players with just as much 'pressure' and 'learning' opportunities than Gambling.
But, you can gamble when ever you want to find someone to match up with, whereas to play in tournaments... you have to wait until they are scheduled.
In Sacramento, there are tournaments 6 nights a week, I don't know of any on Saturday nights.
BTW, if you've ever been to the US Open and the QMasters pool hall after hours, not all the pros are sharpening up their skills by matching up. Some are practicing or catching up on sleep.
At the Derby City Classic, well, gambling sometimes gets in the way of tournament play.
Testing your skills can be accomplish either way (gambling or tournament play) some players will do both, some concentrate on one or the other. Either way, when you play and practice and test your skills, you will become a better player.
I dont think I ever said it was the only way to put on pressure, I only said it was one of the best. Also a clarification, in many "team" sports you're correct... making history is usually the biggest motivator. In individual sports (tennis, pool, golf, bowling, etc.), many of the top players "developed" themselves by gambling. I frequent a crappy little golf course and it originally shocked me to find out how many players were trying to find match-play games for cash or nassau's, etc. I was really surprised.
I commend your desire for pool to have an image, but let's face it... even FISHING has a far better image than pool... and gambling has nothing to do with it. Pool is what it is for a lot of reasons... whether or not players gamble has zero effect on it. I'll end where I started, athletes of ALL sports gamble amongst themselves.... football has steriods, baseball has steriods, biking and track have steroids, bowling has beta blockers, fishing has "fish-planting" and stuff like that, poker has deck mechanics and "such".... every sport has really really bad things. Gambling has zero effect on the image of any of the above.
ACTUALLY, I'd bet you dinner anywhere in the U.S. you'd like.... I'll bet that of all the sports I mentioned, POOL has the LEAST amount of gambling associated with it.
I commend your desire for pool to have an image, but let's face it... even FISHING has a far better image than pool... and gambling has nothing to do with it. Pool is what it is for a lot of reasons... whether or not players gamble has zero effect on it. I'll end where I started, athletes of ALL sports gamble amongst themselves.... football has steriods, baseball has steriods, biking and track have steroids, bowling has beta blockers, fishing has "fish-planting" and stuff like that, poker has deck mechanics and "such".... every sport has really really bad things. Gambling has zero effect on the image of any of the above.
ACTUALLY, I'd bet you dinner anywhere in the U.S. you'd like.... I'll bet that of all the sports I mentioned, POOL has the LEAST amount of gambling associated with it.
So maybe this is why playing for money is such an uncomfortable thing for you?mullyman said:
You associate playing for money with irresponsibility and unfairness.
See, I'm not a megalomaniac. I play what I can afford and when I feel I have a chance to win. If you don't want to call that gambling, don't.
It's just that at this point in my development, it's noticeable that when I play for giggles my game drops in comparison to when I play competitively. I also get bored practicing in a vacuum. I have to practice shots that I missed or misplayed in competition.
I think that happened spontaneously, as I always sought to test my comfort levels.
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An observation:
The only top players who don't do a lot of gambling are continental europeans. I think the reason why is because of their structured leagues which span all disciplines and age groups.
The strenghts therefore of europeans such as Immonen and Thorsten are adapting quickly to conditions and clutch shots.
The strength of Asians lean more toward maintaining a consistent level of concentration over time.
The only top players who don't do a lot of gambling are continental europeans. I think the reason why is because of their structured leagues which span all disciplines and age groups.
The strenghts therefore of europeans such as Immonen and Thorsten are adapting quickly to conditions and clutch shots.
The strength of Asians lean more toward maintaining a consistent level of concentration over time.
ask some of the better filipinos why they play so good...... they will tell you it is because they are in constant action against great players. you have two choices you can either man up or get freight trained......
Personally i have not gambled much and i believe it has negatively affected my game......but it sounds like a lot of people on here dont think gambling helps you improve, which is fine for them to have an opinion, but they are wrong
Personally i have not gambled much and i believe it has negatively affected my game......but it sounds like a lot of people on here dont think gambling helps you improve, which is fine for them to have an opinion, but they are wrong
My opinion on this topic is that anyone that believes that gambling is the only or best way to achieving top-performance under pressure has a narrow view. I think the culture and surroundings in which players are brought up molds their own truths on this topic. Unfortunately, most pool halls in America breed the gambling=training culture.
Someone on this thread said "Name one great player that doesn't gamble..." or something to that effect. The statistical makeup of the US pool champions would point to the gamble-bred champion. I think it is a mistake to then jump to the conclusion that gambling is the best way to achieve one's greatest.
If you take the statistical makeup of world-class 3-cushion billiard players you will find the EXACT opposite to be true. Blomdahl, Caudron, Jaspers, Sayginer, Ceulemans, Zanetti, Sanchez, the list goes on... All have undoubtedly trained with a tremendous amount of discipline to reach their nosebleed heights of performance - but virtually NONE of these players have even the slightest background in gambling.
Someone on this forum might say that we can't compare 3-cushion billiards and pool under the same terms. I would argue that if the terms of comparison were nerves, confidence in ability, performance under pressure, or stroke - the games are identical even though, culturally, the background of the players are totally opposite.
A person that knew anything about billiards would never say that a player such as Ceulemans (in his prime) had lesser nerves of steel or mental fortitude compared to any gambling-seasoned world-class pool player. Or be afraid that Blomdahl's confidence might give in if there was some of his own money on the line - simply because he never gambled a game in his entire career.
I think it is an outdated notion that developing players (from any sport) necessarily need to gamble in order to become seasoned world-class competitors.
If you want to be a good player, then play. If you want to be a good gambler, then gamble.
-Ira
Someone on this thread said "Name one great player that doesn't gamble..." or something to that effect. The statistical makeup of the US pool champions would point to the gamble-bred champion. I think it is a mistake to then jump to the conclusion that gambling is the best way to achieve one's greatest.
If you take the statistical makeup of world-class 3-cushion billiard players you will find the EXACT opposite to be true. Blomdahl, Caudron, Jaspers, Sayginer, Ceulemans, Zanetti, Sanchez, the list goes on... All have undoubtedly trained with a tremendous amount of discipline to reach their nosebleed heights of performance - but virtually NONE of these players have even the slightest background in gambling.
Someone on this forum might say that we can't compare 3-cushion billiards and pool under the same terms. I would argue that if the terms of comparison were nerves, confidence in ability, performance under pressure, or stroke - the games are identical even though, culturally, the background of the players are totally opposite.
A person that knew anything about billiards would never say that a player such as Ceulemans (in his prime) had lesser nerves of steel or mental fortitude compared to any gambling-seasoned world-class pool player. Or be afraid that Blomdahl's confidence might give in if there was some of his own money on the line - simply because he never gambled a game in his entire career.
I think it is an outdated notion that developing players (from any sport) necessarily need to gamble in order to become seasoned world-class competitors.
If you want to be a good player, then play. If you want to be a good gambler, then gamble.
-Ira
I have no idea about any of the 3 cushion and billiard players. I would be willing to "gamble" that 90% of the people who have ever picked up a cue in "the States" don't either. It's just not as prevalent. Just like we don't see a lot of snooker either. I'm sure in other areas across the globe, they aren't as familiar with nine ball players. I (maybe just because of where I am from) don't know of but two snooker tables within a couple of hundred miles, and no billiard tables.iralee said:
But hey, you're right. I have never heard, "Hey, anyone want to play some cheap snooker?" from a stranger.
Once again, though, the OP was "will gambling make you a better player?" I vote "yes."
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SpiderWebComm said:
Sorry to go off topic here, but some of this stuff just can't go unrefuted.
Wow....this is some of the most ...........outrageous.....
I won't even go there. I'll just refute what I know.....after having played tennis for over 25 years, against top level high school players to mid and upper college and even a couple of off the circuit pros (in league play)during my younger years, I NEVER......yes that is correct NEVER had anyone ask me to gamble on the game.....EVER. I mean seriously .... do you just say whatever you want to make your point?
For all the self professed "gamblers" out there, I just hope that you have all of your priorities in line.....taking care of your families, your finances, and your self image. Hopefully, you are not in denial. Looks to me like many are in this thread. I hope I am wrong.
For all you newbies and aspiring players.......you DON'T have to gamble at this game...there is a TON of knowledge here on this site and on the net and in book, dvd form that you can become a world beater with determination and perseverence. As to getting 'match tough' there are plenty of pressure cooker situations you can pursue to practice your nerve. Take that "money that you can afford to lose" and manage it wisely, learn about finance....it will help you in the long run over the great perceived gains that 'gambling' can give you.
There are plenty of us NON gamblers out there....if you want to match up for fun.....after all....it is a GAME. JMNSHO
td
As usual the guy with the vacant stare from Saskatchewan gets to the heart of the matter. I'd rep him but every time I try it says I need to spread more rep around. I would if people would say something I thought was worth giving rep away for.DaveK said:
Pool needs embasadors. Young players need mentors, not some greedy shortstop that's just after what little money they have in thier pockets. This is something that needs to change if we want to see pro pool grow in North America.
I've always made a practice of picking up young players for my team, a new one every season, some stay on my roster, some I find other teams for.
Yes you can learn to play from gambling, I learned 1 pocket that way, now I teach it to who ever wants to learn to me, free of charge.
We need to support young players with knowledge, not have them support us with dollars.
crawfish said:
I think, once again, you totally missed what someone was trying to say.
What Ira is trying to say is, 3c billiards is very similar to the pool that we play. Similar equipment, similar concept, similar game. He is saying that these people achieved a level of greatness without gambling. They found a way to put them pressure on themselves without gambling. **imagine that!** Do you think these great 3c players that dont gamble would fold if they had to play for big money??? i certainly dont think so.
Gamble or become a gamble. Without a doubt it helps. My game has been at a stand still point for some time now because there is no gamble and no players where I live. I can't even pick up a running mate here where I live. Nobody plays well enough.
I really need to move...... The lack of players here refelcts on my game badly and how I've lost interest. On top of the fact that there's no real money in pool and it's tough to make a living at.
You guys who live around 6 or 7 real good players are very lucky in my opinion. To be able to gamble everyday from cheap to expensive. That would be nice. and definitely keep your game in a forward motion.
Thanks for listening,
Crusty Bill C-Rab from Crusty Crab Island
I really need to move...... The lack of players here refelcts on my game badly and how I've lost interest. On top of the fact that there's no real money in pool and it's tough to make a living at.
You guys who live around 6 or 7 real good players are very lucky in my opinion. To be able to gamble everyday from cheap to expensive. That would be nice. and definitely keep your game in a forward motion.
Thanks for listening,
Crusty Bill C-Rab from Crusty Crab Island
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No, I get it. They weren't brought up in the gambling atmosphere, and they have achieved greatness.cleary said:
Once again, the question is "WILL GAMBLING HELP YOUR GAME?" Simple question with different opinions. I vote "yes."
By the way, you take one of the champions that has never gambled, put him in a setting where his entry fee isn't paid, he puts up his own $10,000 versus someone he is matched almost evenly with...... They might not fold, but if it is the first time doing it. Yes. They will probably dog balls that they normally wouldn't. We will never know, though. They won't gamble.
grindz said:Sorry to go off topic here, but some of this stuff just can't go unrefuted.
Wow....this is some of the most ...........outrageous.....
I won't even go there. I'll just refute what I know.....after having played tennis for over 25 years, against top level high school players to mid and upper college and even a couple of off the circuit pros (in league play)during my younger years, I NEVER......yes that is correct NEVER had anyone ask me to gamble on the game.....EVER. I mean seriously .... do you just say whatever you want to make your point?
For all the self professed "gamblers" out there, I just hope that you have all of your priorities in line.....taking care of your families, your finances, and your self image. Hopefully, you are not in denial. Looks to me like many are in this thread. I hope I am wrong.
For all you newbies and aspiring players.......you DON'T have to gamble at this game...there is a TON of knowledge here on this site and on the net and in book, dvd form that you can become a world beater with determination and perseverence. As to getting 'match tough' there are plenty of pressure cooker situations you can pursue to practice your nerve. Take that "money that you can afford to lose" and manage it wisely, learn about finance....it will help you in the long run over the great perceived gains that 'gambling' can give you.
There are plenty of us NON gamblers out there....if you want to match up for fun.....after all....it is a GAME. JMNSHO
td
TD:
I'm sorry for sounding outrageous. Not trying to get your panties in a bunch. All of my friends who play tennis at a high level either gamble now or once did. I used to be a member of a tennis club in central PA called Yorktowne and people used to come in looking for games all the time.
Here are some stories for you to catch-up on:
ESPN:
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=3050009
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/11/sports/ARENA.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/7088488.stm
There's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much tennis gambling it's a joke. WAY more than pool. Bet you didn't know that? I was shocked when I first learned as well!!
The purpose of the thread is "does gambling help your game." YES, it does. Is it the only way? NO. Is it the best way? Not for every player, but for most. If anyone contradicts the above few sentences, you're either IN DENIAL or you haven't been around pool for long.... and if you have, you're not hanging out with real players. End of story. My last post because this thread is repeating itself.
Dave
P.S. If I said whatever I wanted just to make a point like a few other people on here, it'd be too much for everyone to handle.
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SpiderWebComm said:
I'm convinced here that we have to agree to disagree. The articles on rail betting really have nothing to do with this, and the gamblers' paradigm is so entrenched that I doubt that anyone could convince you otherwise. Not that I care what you do or don't do.
I just want to let the up and comers (and yes I have been around the game...probably for longer than you have been alive) know that they do NOT have to gamble to play this game. That paradigm needs to go out the window if the game is to go mainstream IMO. I know this because as a parent, I would NOT place my child in that kind of environment and the kids are the future of pool.
As to your second sentence..whether intended or not..it is demeaning to anyone other than those who may wear them, and 'man up', 'nit', or all of the other woofing techniques don't do much to advance the game or this site.....or, maybe they do. To each his own. Thanks for the discussion.
td
SJDinPHX said:
Dick,
I don't blame you for not wanting to play Tommy for "funnsie's" again. It can't be a lot of fun when you woof a diminutive non-gambling Christian 9-Ball player like Tommy Kennedy into playing you in your home room, at your best game (1-Pocket), in front of all of your buddies, and then be beaten 2-1.
Isn't it just sickening how that little squirt can bear down and play so good for FUN?:frown: Roger
p.s. Don't feel too bad, I'm sure things would have turned out a lot differently if you could have gotten Tommy to bet something.:wink: