Does replacing a tenon affect playability?

Pre-Flag Master

Pre-Flag Master

Cue Ball Man
Silver Member
I like ferrule-less cues. I think their hit feels good and that they play well. I think it partly has to do with less weight - wood is lighter than most ferrule materials. But I think a large part of it has to do with the front end being one continuous material. When hitting the cue ball with the extreme edge of the tip, it feels more like hitting the cue ball with a center hit (as compared to cues with ferrules).

Ok fine, but if your cue has a ferrule already, not much you can do about that.

Now lets say you break your tenon off and get it fixed. I understand there would be a hole drilled and a dowel glued in to create a new tenon. The question is, how would this affect the playability of a cue? My theory is that it would be likely to affect it in a (somewhat) negative way because you have lost some of the continuous-ness of the material in the front few inches. People talk about laminates being stiffer, and I think that could make it feel deader (I'm not a big fan of gluing a lot of wood together to make a shaft).

PS. How deep does one usually drill the hole for a new tenon?

PSS. This is a theory question. I did not break my tenon.

thanks
Fatz
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
I like ferrule-less cues. I think their hit feels good and that they play well. I think it partly has to do with less weight - wood is lighter than most ferrule materials. But I think a large part of it has to do with the front end being one continuous material. When hitting the cue ball with the extreme edge of the tip, it feels more like hitting the cue ball with a center hit (as compared to cues with ferrules).

Ok fine, but if your cue has a ferrule already, not much you can do about that.

Now lets say you break your tenon off and get it fixed. I understand there would be a hole drilled and a dowel glued in to create a new tenon. The question is, how would this affect the playability of a cue? My theory is that it would be likely to affect it in a (somewhat) negative way because you have lost some of the continuous-ness of the material in the front few inches. People talk about laminates being stiffer, and I think that could make it feel deader (I'm not a big fan of gluing a lot of wood together to make a shaft).

PS. How deep does one usually drill the hole for a new tenon?

PSS. This is a theory question. I did not break my tenon.

thanks
Fatz
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If you use maple for the tenon you will never know the difference and it will play the same. I put the tenon in the shaft about 1 and 1/2 inches.

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
If you use maple for the tenon you will never know the difference and it will play the same. I put the tenon in the shaft about 1 and 1/2 inches.

Kim
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I agree also. The only thing that you might feel different is the glue or epoxy. I'm not a great player so I would never be able to tell the difference in the hit myself.
 
whammo57 said:
If you use maple for the tenon you will never know the difference and it will play the same. I put the tenon in the shaft about 1 and 1/2 inches.

Kim
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Do you epoxy or white glue? I've been using epoxy but I'm not sure it's necessary.
 
Tite bond is great for wood to wood joints and for gluing in the tenon. I would use epoxy for the ferrule.

Kim
 
Sorry to hijack the thread, but as has been said on here time and time again, some players get waaaaaay too worried about tiny details that no human being is ever going to possibly notice.

For example, regarding the weight difference between a plastic ferrule and maple: weight a ferrule (with the tenon inside, not the whole 2" tenon, just the tenon inside the ferrule) and weight an equal volume of maple. I would be amazed if a scale would notice a difference, let alone any human being. If you think that difference in weight changes your game, you're too good for me!

Also, the glue used to install the tenon makes a difference in the feel? Wow, really?!? What's next? The color of the wrap changes the the feel?

Just my humble opinion. Maybe I'm completely wrong.
 
jschelin99 said:
For example, regarding the weight difference between a plastic ferrule and maple: weight a ferrule (with the tenon inside, not the whole 2" tenon, just the tenon inside the ferrule) and weight an equal volume of maple. I would be amazed if a scale would notice a difference, let alone any human being. Maybe I'm completely wrong.
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Jeff- There's more difference in weight than you would think, and that tiny difference in weight makes a significant difference in how the cue plays. It is not for no reason some cuemakers are experimenting with ferrule material even lighter than the maple they replace.

Robin
 
I have no problem with people trying different things. Some new things work, some don't. That "airplane" thingy turned out pretty good!

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I'll weight the two (ferrule vs maple) to find out the difference. Maybe I am totally wrong.
 
jschelin99 said:
I have no problem with people trying different things. Some new things work, some don't. That "airplane" thingy turned out pretty good!

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I'll weight the two (ferrule vs maple) to find out the difference. Maybe I am totally wrong.
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No.... you are not totally wrong.......... this is just one more example of people over thinking things.

If I cut off the existing tenon and drill it out and put in a new maple tenon.............. THERE IS NO ONE ON THIS EARTH THAT WILL KNOW THE DIFFERENCE WHILE PLAYING WITH THE CUE....................

PERIOD




Kim
 
Maple vs. LBM

I satisfied my own curiosity, and here’s what I came up with:

In order to get useable data, I made a “super ferrule” of five 13mm, 1.25” LBM ferrules glued in a line on a maple dowel made from an old shaft. I had to turn the “super ferrule” down a little in order to get a smooth cylinder for consistent measurements. Therefore, the “super ferrule” ended up at 12.5mm in diameter and 6” long. From the same shaft, I made a maple dowel also measuring 12.5mm in diameter and 6” long.

According to my Dymo M3 digital postage scale (which displays weights to 0.05oz), the “super ferrule” weighed 0.75 oz and the maple dowel weighed 0.40 oz. So, for a one inch length, the LBM ferrule and tenon weighs 0.125oz and the maple dowel weighs 0.067oz. (Had each cylinder been 13mm, I bet the numbers would match the info posted by JoeyInCali from the Dzuricky web page damn near exactly!)

So, the difference in weight of a one inch LBM ferrule and tenon and an equal length of maple is 0.058oz., which is barely half the weight of a dime! If you can detect that difference, you shouldn’t be wasting your talents playing pool. You should be working for the U.S. Dept. of Weights and Measures. They could really use someone like you!

Please note: I never claimed that different ferrule materials (or no ferrule at all) don’t change the feel of a cue’s hit. We all know they do. I’m simply going the full distance to debunk the myth that the "significant" difference in weight of different ferrule materials changes the hit of a cue.
 

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jschelin99 said:
I satisfied my own curiosity, and here’s what I came up with:

In order to get useable data, I made a “super ferrule” of five 13mm, 1.25” LBM ferrules glued in a line on a maple dowel made from an old shaft. I had to turn the “super ferrule” down a little in order to get a smooth cylinder for consistent measurements. Therefore, the “super ferrule” ended up at 12.5mm in diameter and 6” long. From the same shaft, I made a maple dowel also measuring 12.5mm in diameter and 6” long.

According to my Dymo M3 digital postage scale (which displays weights to 0.05oz), the “super ferrule” weighed 0.75 oz and the maple dowel weighed 0.40 oz. So, for a one inch length, the LBM ferrule and tenon weighs 0.125oz and the maple dowel weighs 0.067oz. (Had each cylinder been 13mm, I bet the numbers would match the info posted by JoeyInCali from the Dzuricky web page damn near exactly!)

So, the difference in weight of a one inch LBM ferrule and tenon and an equal length of maple is 0.058oz., which is barely half the weight of a dime! If you can detect that difference, you shouldn’t be wasting your talents playing pool. You should be working for the U.S. Dept. of Weights and Measures. They could really use someone like you!

Please note: I never claimed that different ferrule materials (or no ferrule at all) don’t change the feel of a cue’s hit. We all know they do. I’m simply going the full distance to debunk the myth that the "significant" difference in weight of different ferrule materials changes the hit of a cue.
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You seem to be confused. The discussion involving the weight of various ferrule materials is not centered around the player being able to feel a weight difference when changing from one material to another. I have never heard a soul suggest a player can feel that weight difference so I don't know who you are arguing with. Also, it is not about changing the hit, necessarily. The discussion centers around the fact that changing the endmass of the cue changes the cue deflection properties, and hence the amount the cueball squirts when using english. That principle is rooted in physics and has been the subject of many discussions and research papers.

Kelly
 
While I don't think I could feel the difference of .058 oz., I'm pretty sure the cue ball will deflect a little more, especially combined with a few more LD tricks such as boring the front end and smaller tapers.

I have tried a couple of ferruless shafts and liked the feel of the hit. At 13mm and a solid front end, the deflection was lower than with a LBM ferrule, but no where near as low as an OB or Tiger LD shaft.

In a few years I hope all cuemakers will be offering an assortment of shaft specs to suit player preference.

Personally I like the performance and feel of my Tiger Pro-X shaft, but I don't buy the notion of radial consistency. Laminated shafts are about making a silk purse from a sows ear. I would rather have a solid maple shaft that my cuemaker selected using his experience and well developed sources to provide a traditional look as well as the specific performance requirements needed for my type of shaft.

As my dad used to say, not everyone drives a black Ford.

Courtney



jschelin99 said:
Please note: I never claimed that different ferrule materials (or no ferrule at all) don’t change the feel of a cue’s hit. We all know they do. I’m simply going the full distance to debunk the myth that the "significant" difference in weight of different ferrule materials changes the hit of a cue.
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To Pre-Flag Master: I must have misunderstood you, because in the 2nd sentence of your original post you wrote: "I think it partly has to do with less weight - wood is lighter than most ferrule materials." I took that to mean you thought the *weight difference* changes the feel. But, you must have meant that the difference in material between a ferrule and having no ferrule at all changes the feel, which I 100% agree with.

Further down the thread, Carguy said: "There's more difference in weight than you would think, and that tiny difference in weight makes a significant difference in how the cue plays." This (coupled with my misunderstanding stated above) was the point I decided to call b***s***, and run my test.

To Kelly-Guy: If you re-read the thread up to your post, all the talk was about "weight" with a odd "feel" here and there. You're the first person to bring up deflection. Yes, I totally agree that different materials change deflection.

So, there you go. I thought we were talking objective differences (weights and measures), not subjective differences (feel). I'll go in the corner for my time-out!
 
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jschelin99 said:
To Pre-Flag Master: I must have misunderstood you, because in the 2nd sentence of your original post you wrote: "I think it partly has to do with less weight - wood is lighter than most ferrule materials." I took that to mean you thought the *weight difference* changes the feel. But, you must have meant that the difference in material between a ferrule and having no ferrule at all changes the feel, which I 100% agree with.

Further down the thread, Carguy said: "There's more difference in weight than you would think, and that tiny difference in weight makes a significant difference in how the cue plays." This (coupled with my misunderstanding stated above) was the point I decided to call b***s***, and run my test.

So, there you go. I thought we were talking objective differences (weights and measures), not subjective differences (feel). I'll go in the corner for my time-out!
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A case of multiple over-lapping concepts without well defined definitions. How a cue "plays" consists of pocketing balls and cue ball control. How a cue "feels" I think has more to do with cue ball control than anything else (that's just my view). End mass weight affects pocketing balls. Ferrule material, or the lack thereof, affects end mass weight AND feel.

I don't like capped ferrules, or threaded ferrules, or long ferrules, or skinny tenons. I can tell the difference in all these variables.

Also, there is a lot of talk about how laminated shafts are stiffer than plain wood shafts. And I think that the lack of the contiuity of the wood can have an effect on how these cues play too. It seems to me that the fibers of a single whole piece of wood would transmit vibration up and down the shaft much better.

So, with this in mind, I asked the question about a glued in tenon's effect. Now this is a theory I have, I'm not taking a position, but I think it's possible that it may have an effect. I say the people who discard it out of hand as somebody over-thinking it, may be wrong. Thought and discussion never hurts.

Fatz
 
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