Does the break cue matter?

Standbykid

Standbykid

Results or excuses?
Silver Member
Hi All, Just wondering if you think the type of break cue you use has anything to do with how well you break. Or is it just your ability, and it doesn't matter what cue you use? The reason I ask is because I break well with my Chad Carter, but I hear so much about the Predator BK-2, I'm debating on getting one. I just don't know if it will make enough of a difference. Thanks for the input.
 
Standbykid said:
Hi All, Just wondering if you think the type of break cue you use has anything to do with how well you break. Or is it just your ability, and it doesn't matter what cue you use? The reason I ask is because I break well with my Chad Carter, but I hear so much about the Predator BK-2, I'm debating on getting one. I just don't know if it will make enough of a difference. Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...

Just like a playing cue, a break cue plays differently for different people. Some cues seem to have a better following than others. You need to try a few different brands and weights out to see what works with your style of breaking. As a whole, most break cues have a larger diameter, stiffer shaft than playing cues. Some have phenolic tips and some leather. Some people like light weight break cues for more speed and others like heavier, slower moving cues for more control. No one brand fits all.

Dick
 
Standbykid said:
Hi All, Just wondering if you think the type of break cue you use has anything to do with how well you break. Or is it just your ability, and it doesn't matter what cue you use? The reason I ask is because I break well with my Chad Carter, but I hear so much about the Predator BK-2, I'm debating on getting one. I just don't know if it will make enough of a difference. Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...


I think the break cue is to Pool what the driver is to Golf.

That being said, some people can't use them (hit any better with them)...........Others it makes a big difference...

And then there are those that have them just because they don't want to put the undo stress on the playing tip or playing cue.....Break Cues do tend to get banged up a bit....(at least mine does)
 
look hard enough and you'll find a good house cue that'll make a good "break cue". you just have to know how to pick 'em. pros need break cues because it makes no sense to go looking for a house cue at a tournament.
 
i think a jump/break cue is definitely a tool you should have in your case, basically anything with a phenolic tip is a start, I like one a little on the light side, the speed i generate allows me to break harder than with a house cue with less effort and control the rock better. Of all the break cues ive broken with, varneys break cue seemed to work best for me. That said i havent dropped the money for one and currently use just a simple j@j off ebay for 40 bucks
 
not just for the pros anymore

i could never find a house cue at one of our amateur tournaments either.
so i bought a jump/break, filled the extra spot in my 2x4 nicely also.
it's a j&j and i can't wait to replace it. just not sure what with yet.
gulyassy, lightning bolt, bk2, x breaker, etc. they all hit so well!
maybe someone wants to pick one for me.
pm me to get the 'ship to' address you'll need.
 
on topic this time

break cues are much better for breaking than non-break cues.
much better. I've narrowed it down to the gulyassy or the x breaker
but if you have a bk2 lying around i'll take that too. i don't think the
lightning bolt will be around very long. when i find another penny
i'll be back
 
The ONLY reason I got a breaker is going to tourneys where there are no house cues. I break just as well with any solid 17oz cue as I do with my EARL j/b;)

mostly I soft break anyway, so I use my Schon 90% of the time.

Gerry
 
Total personal preference.

I use a 19oz. Lucasi J/B, and I feel i get just the right speed and control with it.

My APA captain uses a 12oz Lightning or something like that. It has the phenolic tip. (I hate the phenolic tip, I get more control with the Triangle hard)

2 guys on my team use BK's. (Someday i'm sure I'll swith to one, good speed and control)
 
special cue for a special shot

Break cues are definitely designed differently in order to increase the probability of certain things happening. Most break cues have the following characteristics that make it a better choice for this important shot:

-A good shaft for a break cue will start tapering immediately making for a thicker shaft that has less flex. This leads to less deflection and more power going along the line of the shot.

-Break cues are lighter, although you can always ask for a heavier one. This is because acceleration is what produces the most force (Force = mass * accellaration squared ) and it is easier to produce this in a lighter cue.

-Phenolic tips reduce the amount time that the tip and ball are in contact, allowing for a better transfer of power. A leather tip would compress and absorb some of the force you put into the shot.

-I use an X-Breaker, which has a tip that is flat on the top. This increases the area around the center of the cue ball that you can hit without putting spin on it. Spin is just another way that power can leak out of the break. Ideally, I like to hit the break with a dead ball and let it just ricochet off the rack into the center of the table.

Having said all of that, you still have to hit the shot well. This means maintaining the same fundamentals you do for every shot. I have found that putting a pause between my back swing and delivery helps to produce more power as this allows all of the backward inertia to fade. I also seem to be able to keep my stroke in better line this way when I use a hard stroke in general.

If you are going to rely on a cut/soft break, then you may just want to use your regular cue. I feel that when I try this, I am trying to control a specific aspect of the shot such as pocketing the one in the side and you will always be able to perform more controlled shots with your playing cue. Break cues seem to be mainly designed with a power break in mind.

Ultimately, I think that since the break is such an essential shot in short rack games, you should do whatever is necessary.
 
I think the break cue is a tool. The tool is only as good as the person weilding it can use it. For me I have a Predator BK, the original, and I love it. I have a customized shaft with the ferrule/tip all phenolic composite. I also have the original with a Moori III Medium on it. I like having the option. If it is a table that is best suited to a power break I hit the phenolic, for a table that is best suited to a soft break I switch to the Moori. I like having a cue like the BK with a phenolic as I can jump with that cue as well. It is just another tool in the arsenal. To each their own.


Interesting discovery:

My friend has a X-Breaker and a Gulyassy. While looking I realized both are made by Samsara. The joints were the same. I like a wrap on my cues but the Gulyassy was wrapless and the X-Breaker had a great pigskin wrap. I took the butt of the X-Breaker and put it into the forearm of the Gulyassy. The result was awesome! The cue became a bit lighter and the weight shifted forward just perfectly. The resulting breaks were some of the best I have ever had. Easy to control and tons of power! Just thought some might think as I did that the mixing option was neat.
 
jjr183 said:
Force = mass * accellaration squared )
Click to expand...

F= m*a not F=m*a^2

I think the transfer of momentum has more to do with break shots. p=m*v, where p is momentum, m is mass, and v is velocity. There is always a trade off between the weight of the cue and how fast you can get the particular amount of weight moving before it hits the cueball.

Force

Momentum
 
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ShaneT58 said:
F= m*a not F=m*a^2

I think the transfer of momentum has more to do with break shots. p=m*v, where p is momentum, m is mass, and v is velocity. There is always a trade off between the weight of the cue and how fast you can get the particular amount of weight moving before it hits the cueball.

Force

Momentum
Click to expand...

You got me. It's been so long since I took Newtonian physics that it must have blurred with age.

It was momentum I was thinking of in that with a light cue, you are trading a slight difference in mass for a potentially MUCH larger gain in velocity as your arm will be able to produce more acceleration. At least that is how I perceive it from my experience.

Rep on the catch.
 
don't forget about the other big factor/variable regarding the weight of the cue though - people are all built differently. certain body types don't lend themselves to a certain weight of cue on the break. for example, a huge muscle built bloke who perhaps isn't as fast and agile would be better suited to something a bit heavier.
 
jjr183 said:
You got me. It's been so long since I took Newtonian physics that it must have blurred with age.

It was momentum I was thinking of in that with a light cue, you are trading a slight difference in mass for a potentially MUCH larger gain in velocity as your arm will be able to produce more acceleration. At least that is how I perceive it from my experience.

Rep on the catch.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this comes up over and over again; momentum is the key, and in fact is the property that transfers from cue to cue ball. The mass would cancel out in an ideal physics world where all the cue's momentum transfers to the cue ball and the arm always exerts exactly the same force.

Anyway, the physics involved are almost totally moot, because everybody has a different swing, especially on the break, and muscles are quirky things. They output drastically different amounts of force depending on load and body geometry (exactly how you have your arm positioned). Meaning some people's muscles will output more force with a heavier cue due to load, and some people's muscles will work better with a lighter cue due to better fast-twitch response. Furthermore, people with a longer swing on the break will likely not reap the full benefits of the light cue, because at some point before contact their arm is already moving as fast as it can move and thus they're no longer adding momentum to the cue, whereas with a heavier cue and the slower acceleration that goes with, they could still be accelerating and adding momentum to the cue all the way until contact.

Should you have a break cue? I say yes. The way to get consistency and control in your break is by doing it the same way every time, and if the cue you use is different every time, the break is going to feel different every time, and your body's not going to learn consistency as fast. Also, you can get a jump/break, because although you can break with a house cue pretty well, jump cues are vastly superior jumpers than house cues are, so you can have a jump cue that helps you break more consistently. Seems worth the price to me. Mine's a Gulyassy sledgehammer j/b, and I'm extremely satisfied with my purchase.

-Andrew
 
worriedbeef said:
don't forget about the other big factor/variable regarding the weight of the cue though - people are all built differently. certain body types don't lend themselves to a certain weight of cue on the break. for example, a huge muscle built bloke who perhaps isn't as fast and agile would be better suited to something a bit heavier.
Click to expand...

Didn't see this post before I posted, but this is an extremely important point. Bulkier muscles don't generally contract as quickly, even though they are capable of greater force. A lighter cue won't do you any good if your muscle contraction can't keep up with how fast it accelerates.

-Andrew
 
Standbykid said:
Hi All, Just wondering if you think the type of break cue you use has anything to do with how well you break. Or is it just your ability, and it doesn't matter what cue you use? The reason I ask is because I break well with my Chad Carter, but I hear so much about the Predator BK-2, I'm debating on getting one. I just don't know if it will make enough of a difference. Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...

if you have a Chad Carter break cue, i dont think i would waste my time getting one of those little whippy, flimsy Predator break cues with the 12.75 shaft diameter............

DCP
 
you explained my point in a lot more detail than i could manage andrew. bottom line is though there is an ever increasing trend of dished out advice that just says "lighter cue = better". there's more to it than that, and a lot of people don't realise this.
 
jjr183 said:
-Phenolic tips reduce the amount time that the tip and ball are in contact, allowing for a better transfer of power. A leather tip would compress and absorb some of the force you put into the shot.
Click to expand...

Jamie...I'd like to know where you heard this. The dwell time between tip and CB is approximately 1/1000th of a second...and that's with a regular leather tip. This is according to the Jacksonville Experiment high-speed photography. As a comparative value, it takes you 4/1000ths of a second to blink your eyes. You simply cannot "reduce" the amount of time that the tip and CB are in contact, when it is this short to begin with (just as you cannot significantly 'lengthen' the dwell time either).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
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Scott Lee said:
Jamie...I'd like to know where you heard this. The dwell time between tip and CB is approximately 1/1000th of a second...and that's with a regular leather tip. This is according to the Jacksonville Experiment high-speed photography. As a comparative value, it takes you 4/1000ths of a second to blink your eyes. You simply cannot "reduce" the amount of time that the tip and CB are in contact, when it is this short to begin with (just as you cannot significantly 'lengthen' the dwell time either).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...


It sounds like you are saying that 1/1000th of a second is the shortest interval of time there is. In the Jacksonville videos, I would assume that you can watch the compression of the tip. This surely takes place over a span of time (albeit VERY short). A tip that compresses less would finish compressing in less time. This means a shorter period of time for contact. All other things being equal (which they never are), you should get more energy transfered into the cueball. An extreme example illustrates the point further. Lets say we replace our tip with a 12 inch long marshmallow. I will place a large wager that the marshmallow is in contact longer with the cue ball than a leather tip. Obviously the difference between the marshmallow and a leather tip is much greater than the difference between different tips of different hardness. However, the difference is still there, small though it may be.
A big however-just because a particular tip is harder absolutely does NOT mean it will hit the cue ball any faster. Keep in mind that there are quite a number of elements involved in the chain of "contact". You have a relatively hard cue ball (which compresses on impact with the tip), the tip itself, the ferrule, the shaft, joint, butt, hand, etc. All of these things compress at different rates. This means that they also "uncompress" at different rates. The goal is to have a cue/ferrule/tip/joint/etc. setup that is matched to your stroke and most importantly your stroke speed. the goal for maximum power would be to use a setup that is "springing" back into shape at exactly the moment you are striking the cueball. Good luck finding an equation that can tell you this. It is going to take some trial and error.

ON TOPIC: Yes, get a break cue. The principle reason for this is to protect the tip on your playing cue. This is VERY important to me. I have tried many break cues, and I think some offer some benefits in speed and control. Don't make the mistake of looking at it as a way to get more power. I have an X-Breaker, Predator BK, Pete Omen, and have tried almost all the popular ones out there. I also own a radar gun. Now by feel, the X-Breaker is by far the most solid hitting cue I have ever felt. However, on radar at home, my fastest break was with a 18 oz. house cue with a slightly mushy Triangle leather tip. We are only talking about 1 mph max.
The best break cue is the one that feels comfortable to you, allows you to strike the cueball where intended, and offers a solid hit with quality dependable construction. If you break at the speed of the average man (which I would guess is around 18 mph?), speed is not your issue. The things to look at are cueball control (which usually equates to a solid hit on the head ball), and the ability to make accurate but VERY slight adjustments in tip placement and speed. Being able to reliably hit 1/4 tip high or low is great (and rediculously hard to do). Also, being able to back off on your speed 1 or 2 mph-those are the things that can make that corner ball go when it seems like it won't, or to get that one in the side.

Finally, one thing to keep in mind: Phenolic tip cues are really only good if you already have excellent control on your break. The extra power (real or perceived) is really useless if your cue ball is all over the place. While phenolic tips (especially fairly flat ones) will greatly reduce the spin on the cue ball, but they will magnify the effects of hitting the rack bad. The biggest recent improvement to my break has been to knock about 3-5 mph off my speed. My goal now is to hit the head ball at about 20-21 mph, and hold the cueball right there (in 9 -ball its nice to drift a little back towards the end of the table where you break from, because that is where the 1 goes.)

Sorry for the rambling,

Kerry
 
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