Does the elbow HAVE to stay level?

[Clark_the_Shark]

Does the elbow HAVE to stay put?

So for a long time I thought that my back arm from my shoulder to my elbow was staying still and not dropping. That is until I video taped myself and noticed that my elbow does infact drop quite a bit after contact with the CB). Now I have tried and tried to keep my elbow from dropping and have found it to be very difficult. Using this method, my follow through is VERY short and it feels as though I have practically no power at all. However, my accuracy does seem to be better. If I am playing well, is this a major concern? I'm no world beater but I run out fairly consistently. I'd say 1 out of every 10-12 racks. Could my level of play jump dramatically if I could just stop my elbow from dropping?

Just a note on my stance, I'm not super low over the cue where my chin touches (like the women) and I'm not standing completely upright either, I'm about half-way in between with the cue about 9-10 inches below my chin. (Almost exactly like Neil's stance in his avatar below)

Thanks.

 

[Neil]

..........................

 

[Craig Fales]

So for a long time I thought that my back arm from my shoulder to my elbow was staying still and not dropping. That is until I video taped myself and noticed that my elbow does infact drop quite a bit. Now I have tried and tried to keep my elbow from dropping and have found it to be very difficult. My follow through is VERY short and it feels as though I have practically no power at all. However, my accuracy does seem to be better. If I am playing well, is this a major concern? I'm no world beater but I run out fairly consistently. I'd say 1 out of every 10-15 racks. Could my level of play jump dramatically if I could just stop my elbow from dropping?

Just a note on my stance, I'm not super low over the cue where my chin touches (like the women) and I'm not standing completely upright either, I'm about half-way in between with the cue about 9-10 inches below my chin.

Thanks.

Do whatever it takes to deliver the cue in a dead straight line, that includes some degree of elbow drop often. Esp. on shots hit some speed.

 

[sfleinen]

Confusing thread title vs. poll question

So for a long time I thought that my back arm from my shoulder to my elbow was staying still and not dropping. That is until I video taped myself and noticed that my elbow does infact drop quite a bit. Now I have tried and tried to keep my elbow from dropping and have found it to be very difficult. My follow through is VERY short and it feels as though I have practically no power at all. However, my accuracy does seem to be better. If I am playing well, is this a major concern? I'm no world beater but I run out fairly consistently. I'd say 1 out of every 10-15 racks. Could my level of play jump dramatically if I could just stop my elbow from dropping?

Just a note on my stance, I'm not super low over the cue where my chin touches (like the women) and I'm not standing completely upright either, I'm about half-way in between with the cue about 9-10 inches below my chin.

Thanks.

Clark_the_Shark:

Just FYI, you entitled this thread "Does the elbow HAVE to stay level?" (inferring a question about one's opinion as to what he/she thinks the elbow is "supposed" to do), yet the poll answer choices seem to ask instead what the poller's own elbow is doing.

Anyway, I'd video-taped myself, and my elbow is pretty much pinned; the only time it's not is during a break, when I involve my shoulder and pectoral muscles (I turn slightly on the windup, and slightly side-arm my break to get greater power). In practice, when I experiment with different right-hand grips (I'm a rightie), sometimes I'll drop my elbow, but when I'm in action or a tourney match, I default to my standard grip and pin the elbow. It's what works for me.

However, I don't think it's an absolute "show-stopper necessity" to pin your elbow. There are many, many great players who do NOT pin their elbow, and actually drop the elbow during their stroke.

Although I'm not an advocate or booster of their product, LaserStroke has a nice video of Johnny Archer using the product, and as you can see, his cue delivery is dead-nuts straight (the laser line painted on the cue-ball doesn't move sideways at all), yet you can plainly see that Johnny drops his elbow during the final stroke:

http://laserstroke.com/id69.html

Hope this is helpful!
-Sean

 

[Clark_the_Shark]

My lower arm is completely perpendicular with the cue stick at the point of impact. (it hangs straight down)

Maybe the poll & questions are different. But I wanted to answers to both, so I included both the question and the poll. Sorry for the confusion. I wanted to know both "What it SHOULD be doing" and "What you actually do"

Running out every 10-15 racks includes not making a ball on the break, or not having a shot on the 1 ball. This meant full running from the break. I guess I should say consistently run out the rest of the table when I get to shoot again.

 

[the420trooper]

I don't care if you are shooting between your legs, the important thing is to have a straight stroke. If you can have a straight stroke with your elbow dropping, go right ahead. The thing is, it is much easier for most people to have a straight stroke moving only from the elbow down. And that is the best way to teach someone. It is the easiest route to consistency.

I spend years dropping my elbow, and once I stoped dropping it, I became much more consistent. If you are losing power with your elbow straight, check where your grip is when the tip is very near the cueball. Your forearm should be hanging straight down, or slightly to the back . If it is forward, you will lose power. This grip is taught by many for those shots that require less power, move your grip forward.

Great post, Neil, thanks for the tip.

I've noticed that my elbow drops quite a bit on power shots, but I think that without the elbow drop, I wouldn't have as much stroke power.

On shots where I'm just cinching the ball, I make sure to keep the elbow still, and use a very short stroke. Small backswing, short forward thrust. It worked for Allen Hopkins....

 

[pooltchr]

No, your elbow doesn't have to stay still while stroking.
No, your cue doesn't need to move forward in a straight line.

Now, if you want to make more shots, it's a good idea to have the cue move forward in a straight line, and the easiest way to do that is to pin your elbow.

But nobody can tell you what you HAVE to do.

Steve

 

[Andrew Manning]

My lower arm is completely perpendicular with the cue stick at the point of impact. (it hangs straight down)

Maybe the poll & questions are different. But I wanted to answers to both, so I included both the question and the poll. Sorry for the confusion. I wanted to know both "What it SHOULD be doing" and "What you actually do"

Running out every 10-15 racks includes not making a ball on the break, or not having a shot on the 1 ball. This meant full running from the break. I guess I should say consistently run out the rest of the table when I get to shoot again.

If your arm is perpendicular to the floor at contact, you should be able to follow through the ball plenty, and generate plenty of power, without having to drop the elbow. Without dropping my elbow, and standing with my chin 10" above the cue, there's 8-10 inches of follow-through between my arm being perpendicular to the floor and my finish position.

Here's a question: when you don't drop your elbow, where to the knuckles of your shooting hand end up at the finish of your stroke? How are they oriented?

For me, the answers are that my knuckles and up about 2" from my shoulder, and they are oriented pointing up (index finger knuckle is above middle finger knuckle). If that isn't how yours look, then the problem isn't the elbow; it's that you aren't finishing your stroke.

As for me, I do sometimes drop my elbow a little, particularly on follow shots, but it's a habit I'm trying to break, and I'm making progress.

-Andrew

 

[Clark_the_Shark]

No, your elbow doesn't have to stay still while stroking.

Okay, just so we're on the same page here, I just want to clarify, my back arm is completely still during the entire backswing and up until contact with the cue ball. It's only at point of contact with the CB and follow through that my elbow drops down.

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

my elbow drops on some strokes, upon analysis the drop is well after the tip of the cue has made contact with the cueball (and CB is gone..)... So it doesnt really effect the stoke/shot that much (if at all???). But it's something Im working on eliminating all together.

 

[spoons]

The crucial part to me seems to be making sure the elbow doesn't drop until after the cue makes contact with the cue ball. Short of a double hit, no amount of motion in your arm will affect the cue ball after the cue ball has left your tip.

In general, I think most people will tell you that the fewer moving parts you have in your stroke, the easier it is to repeat that stroke consistently. So, dropping your elbow would be another variable to worry about. But, those same people will also acknowledge that there isn't one "correct" stroke.

The classic pendulum stroke is a great starting point for teaching, but none of our bodies are shaped the same, and none of our strokes will ever be exactly the same. The pros all do it differently, too. Mike Davis and XTP are two that I can think of who have a ton of movement in their elbows. Keith McCready and Allen Hopkins both tend to move around a lot as well. They all play pretty sporty.

That said, if you have a repeatable stroke that gives you predictable results, I wouldn't worry too much about it. My elbow drops and my forearm is past perpendicular at contact. After years of trying to mold myself into that classic stroke, I realized that this is the only way that's comfortable to me, and that I know how to get predictable results.

Not sure how much that helps you, but that's my take on it.

 

[Craig Fales]

If your arm is perpendicular to the floor at contact, you should be able to follow through the ball plenty, and generate plenty of power, without having to drop the elbow. Without dropping my elbow, and standing with my chin 10" above the cue, there's 8-10 inches of follow-through between my arm being perpendicular to the floor and my finish position.

Here's a question: when you don't drop your elbow, where to the knuckles of your shooting hand end up at the finish of your stroke? How are they oriented?

For me, the answers are that my knuckles and up about 2" from my shoulder, and they are oriented pointing up (index finger knuckle is above middle finger knuckle). If that isn't how yours look, then the problem isn't the elbow; it's that you aren't finishing your stroke.

As for me, I do sometimes drop my elbow a little, particularly on follow shots, but it's a habit I'm trying to break, and I'm making progress.

-Andrew

That's quite a tall stance. Try it with your chin rubbing the cue, that's the way a play. If you don't have some degree of elbow drop you'll drive the cue into your chin. I've tried it and it doesn't work for me.

 

[pooltchr]

That's quite a tall stance. Try it with your chin rubbing the cue, that's the way a play. If you don't have some degree of elbow drop you'll drive the cue into your chin. I've tried it and it doesn't work for me.

I've watched Allison shoot with her chin touching the cue, and she doesn't seem to have an elbow drop.

Steve

 

[ShootingArts]

Allen Hopkins, Keith McCready, Francisco Bustamonte . . . .

All have been accepted as the very best at one time or another and all have very unconventional strokes. You have to be able to deliver the cue tip where you want it to be for maybe 1/4" inch of your stroke. What you do before that or after that in your stroke only matters to the degree it affects that quarter inch or so of your stroke when your cue tip is in contact with the cue ball.

The pendulum stroke which the still elbow is a major component of is perhaps the easiest stroke to teach, diagnose problems with, and correct problems with if someone has problems. Contrary to many opinions, a pure pendulum is an extremely unnatural stroke that takes a lot of work to develop.

First issue, locking the shoulder: Human beings have no mechanism for locking the shoulder in that position so we are had already.

Keep the elbow still: If we keep the elbow still and wish the cue to move in a straight line then we must make adjustments in the wrist and/or grip. These are far more complicated maneuvers than a little movement in the elbow or elbow and shoulder.

The pendulum has merits as mentioned in my second paragraph. All of the advantages make it one of the easier strokes to develop consistency with, . . . . once you develop a good pendulum stroke. Any stroke that allows you to consistently control the tip of your cue for the moment that it is in contact with the cue ball works however. Some of the very best pure shot makers over the years used far different strokes.

Hu

 

[pooltchr]

Okay, just so we're on the same page here, I just want to clarify, my back arm is completely still during the entire backswing and up until contact with the cue ball. It's only at point of contact with the CB and follow through that my elbow drops down.

OK. If that is the case, why do you feel it is necessary to drop your elbow at all. If you are doing it after contact, what benefit do you get from the added movement. After all, the ball is already long gone.

One of the benefits of stroking through without moving the elbow is you can easily have a consistent and repeatable stroke. By having a specific finish point for EVERY stroke, you will immediately know if you have a flaw in your mechanics. You also reduce the possibility that the elbow drop might actually creep in before contact, creating unwanted spin.

So if there is no benefit to dropping your elbow, and several benefits to not dropping it, why would you want to do it?

Steve

 

[Clark_the_Shark]

I don't feel it's necessary, it feels natural. It allows me to have a nice follow through. Stopping my elbow from dropping after the shot makes me feel like I'm stopping my stroke too soon. (thus the limited power and shorter follow through I was referring to) But you may be right about unwanted spin as I am seeing that some of my shots do have unwanted spin, so I'm working on that.

 

[1hit1der]

When I started banging balls around, my only focus was to move the cue in a straight line. To accomodate that, I did drop my elbow a little bit, particularly towards the end of the stroke. When I took a lesson with Scott Lee, we tried to correct that, which felt unnatural to me because if my elbow's pinned, my grip hand is moving up vertically while my cue is pivoting on my bridge which drives my tip into the table. So I never tried to incorporate the full pinned elbow into my stroke, but keep it still for as long as comfortable before my tip starts ripping up the cloth.

 

[chazdillon]

i dislocated my right shoulder sunday and ive been playing real good ever since because if i move my shoulder at all it hurts so damn bad i cant help but notice it.......blessing in disguise.

 

[pooltchr]

I don't feel it's necessary, it feels natural. It allows me to have a nice follow through. Stopping my elbow from dropping after the shot makes me feel like I'm stopping my stroke too soon. (thus the limited power and shorter follow through I was referring to) But you may be right about unwanted spin as I am seeing that some of my shots do have unwanted spin, so I'm working on that.

Consider this. Your shoulder is a ball and socket type joint that allows motion in virtually any direction. Your elbow is a hinge type joint that can only open and close. That means if all the movement comes from the elbow, you cue has no choice but to move in a straight line. As soon as movement from the shoulder is introduced, the cue can move in any direction.

As for stopping your stroke too soon, the pendilum stroke allows for your stroke to come to a natural finish. Mentally, you may think that more follow-through means more power. The fact is, whether you have 3 inches of follow-through or 12 doesn't matter. Once the tip and the cue ball have separated, you have no more control over what happens. That's why the pendilum stroke is so accurate. As for speed, it can be accomplished. I even break with a pendilum stroke.

Steve

 

[pooltchr]

When I started banging balls around, my only focus was to move the cue in a straight line. To accomodate that, I did drop my elbow a little bit, particularly towards the end of the stroke. When I took a lesson with Scott Lee, we tried to correct that, which felt unnatural to me because if my elbow's pinned, my grip hand is moving up vertically while my cue is pivoting on my bridge which drives my tip into the table. So I never tried to incorporate the full pinned elbow into my stroke, but keep it still for as long as comfortable before my tip starts ripping up the cloth.

Scott gave you some very valuable information. Yes, with a pendilum stroke, the tip of the cue will move down toward the table after the tip and cue ball have separated. I have never seen anyone rip up the cloth by using a pendilum stroke.

Consider the reason you asked Scott to help you in the first place. Probably because you wanted to improve your game, and he has a great reputation for helping students improve. So if you never tried to incorporate an important part of what he suggested into your game, is it possible that you might have short-changed yourself?

Steve