Don't hate on the leagues
- Thread starter mvp
- Start date
The leagues are just a business that's out to make money and not some benevolent charity and that's fine, so why not let someone just pay up and play that may not have the time or desire to do the league thing?? ? UNLESS of course yall are just skerrrrrrrd!! Lol j/k
Just a dub, you understand correctly lol, I'm not a league lover, but as original poster of this thred I try not to bash leagues ethier. But yes I would rather purchase my qualifications then to play 6 weeks of meaning less plays in a league that barely pays your cost back accompanied with a $4 trophy. I quit league yrs ago because all the reasons ppl posted early, also I play 2-4hrs everyday and now league drops that down to about 6games on that night. So back to my statement Yes if I could buy my way into the tourneys I would rather!!!!
The core entity of a league is the team. A good league team needs a responsible and enthusiastic captain as well as a group of players who are committed to playing every week. Nothing erodes team unity quicker than players who don't show up every week. Constant searching for subs makes the captain's job much more difficult.
As a league operator I have a system in place that rewards players that play every week. I do this because teams that have consistent players are stronger than teams full of subs, and strong teams make for a strong league. Our league tournaments are all free to enter for league members but you must have played in over 2/3 of all matches to qualify. End-of-season payouts for individuals are based on total wins, with bonus points for runs, so it behooves players to never miss a week.
I would have no problem at all with a player who joined our league simply to play 8 weeks to qualify for the Nationals in Vegas, but that player would not enjoy any of the perks that our league offers.
The leagues are just a business that's out to make money and not some benevolent charity and that's fine, so why not let someone just pay up and play that may not have the time or desire to do the league thing?? ? UNLESS of course yall are just skerrrrrrrd!! Lol j/k
And if you want to follow that line of thinking, its bad business to let some people participate in your event without meeting the requirements that your customers are bound by.
Its simply not fair to those who support (and participate in) the league. The tournaments are a benefit for their members.
Go play in all the big boy tournaments that get put on for the "real players", you know, the ones too good for league.
Just my .02
Yes but I believe in all leagues they do have " singles " tournaments and being a business why not capitalize on whoever wants to play. Iguess the handicap thing is the stopper in these scenarios. When I was a teen, I had someone that was close to the lo and he was always the tournament director for the bigger singles tournaments over at the Green Room and he let me get in ( just had to pay entry + membership ) and I made some decent cash from those tournies. No idea if they had the rule back then about needing so many matches to qualify???
The leagues are just a business that's out to make money and not some benevolent charity and that's fine, so why not let someone just pay up and play that may not have the time or desire to do the league thing?? ? UNLESS of course yall are just skerrrrrrrd!! Lol j/k
Maybe the league feels that having access to the league tournaments is part of the incentive to join the league You know, basic marketing.
Ever belonged to a golf club? Paid a membership to a course? They have "Club Championships" every year. Should an open golfer be allowed to enter their tournament?
The APA has some closed qualifiers. They aren't cash tournaments. They're for access to higher level APA events. Singles tournaments, etc. Why should or would a non league player want to play in those types of tournaments? There's no payout that they could use.
They're geared for individuals that want to compete. There are also Masters singles boards. Real pool. Pushouts. Jump cues. Called shot. You still need to be a member of the APA to play in them. The investment is $25 per year for your membership. And you have to be on an active roster to play. To be "active", you need 10 matches in your first session, and 4 matches per session thereafter. Hardly a huge investment.
It's not about the money for me, it's the hassle and desire not to play league, triple the price for non members to play, when the price gets to high then they would play the more cost effective league. To me I'd would set up a tourney with a 300$ entry for walk ins, $200 entry for card holders, $100 entry for card holding members with 8weeks of play! Then leave it for the player to decide! The league would still profit without the weekly hassle of book keeping for the walk-ins
It is just great how people want to tell other people how to run their businesses. Anyone who wants to, and who has the ability, is free to organize a tournament and have any rules they want. So are league operators free to set up their leagues and have any rules they want. There is no intrinsic right or entitlement to play in someone else's tournament. It doesn't matter if YOU believe that the league should allow it because YOU generously allow them to charge you more.
I don't hate the leagues, although I also don't play on them anymore because there are no more left in my area with challenging players in them.
However, I do have three big beefs with the league systems, and I say this with the understanding that operators and such are doing their utmost on the whole to combat these things.
1. The culture of sandbagging to get an advantage. We all know there are very, very, very few saints among us in the pool world. That being said, I've watched this happen on every team I've played against, and on my own team. One of the reasons I quit playing league in the first place was a co-captain who kept asking me to lose games because my handicap was getting to high. It just got to the point where you were never sure you were getting an honest game anymore, and that irks me.
2. People who don't read the rule book. I get that league is a place to have fun and not necessarily take pool too seriously. Yet we've all seen this person at least once. The ones who don't understand you can use your cue stick to move the cue ball on a ball in hand as long as the ferrule and/or tip don't make contact. The ones who call a foul when you hit a frozen ball first and then a rail after contact. The ones who don't understand that on a scratch on an 8 ball break it goes behind the headstring, not ball in hand. The list goes on. I'm also not very fond of the opposite folks, who seem to call a foul on every single shot whether there was a foul or not. Both these types of players drain all the fun out of the game when I play them.
3. People who think because they are a 6 or a 7 in the league they can go toe to toe with any pro. This right here is admittedly just a personal preference. I'm nowhere near pro caliber play, but I'm not half bad either. I've shot a few racks with people like Ralph Souquet and Karl Boyes. I've actually drawn Mike Davis for a tournament a time or two in the greater area. Most leaguers, even the 8s and 9s, are not on the same planet as those guys. So it bugs me when someone cops an attitude like just because they are the best in a pool of folks who are just out to have fun like they are the best on earth. I get being confident in yourself, but have at least a little humility and perspective.
However, I do have three big beefs with the league systems, and I say this with the understanding that operators and such are doing their utmost on the whole to combat these things.
1. The culture of sandbagging to get an advantage. We all know there are very, very, very few saints among us in the pool world. That being said, I've watched this happen on every team I've played against, and on my own team. One of the reasons I quit playing league in the first place was a co-captain who kept asking me to lose games because my handicap was getting to high. It just got to the point where you were never sure you were getting an honest game anymore, and that irks me.
2. People who don't read the rule book. I get that league is a place to have fun and not necessarily take pool too seriously. Yet we've all seen this person at least once. The ones who don't understand you can use your cue stick to move the cue ball on a ball in hand as long as the ferrule and/or tip don't make contact. The ones who call a foul when you hit a frozen ball first and then a rail after contact. The ones who don't understand that on a scratch on an 8 ball break it goes behind the headstring, not ball in hand. The list goes on. I'm also not very fond of the opposite folks, who seem to call a foul on every single shot whether there was a foul or not. Both these types of players drain all the fun out of the game when I play them.
3. People who think because they are a 6 or a 7 in the league they can go toe to toe with any pro. This right here is admittedly just a personal preference. I'm nowhere near pro caliber play, but I'm not half bad either. I've shot a few racks with people like Ralph Souquet and Karl Boyes. I've actually drawn Mike Davis for a tournament a time or two in the greater area. Most leaguers, even the 8s and 9s, are not on the same planet as those guys. So it bugs me when someone cops an attitude like just because they are the best in a pool of folks who are just out to have fun like they are the best on earth. I get being confident in yourself, but have at least a little humility and perspective.
Leagues are a business, some are good and some aren't managed as well as others.
Leagues offer a product, some buy them while other don't.
I live in a largely populated area with Pool Hall chains as well as locally owned establishments. I personally know every owner or chain manager within 50 miles and I can say without a doubt that every one of them compete for any and all leagues they can get. I can also say that (without a doubt) none of them would exist without the league revenues; happy hours and purists simply can't/don't support the bottom line sufficiently.
IMO the best Billiard establishments are owned/managed by actual pool players; their equipment is typically better maintained and few I know even run and/or participate in leagues. These are the ones I look for.
Liking or hating leagues is obviously based on personal preferences but business is business.
Leagues offer a product, some buy them while other don't.
I live in a largely populated area with Pool Hall chains as well as locally owned establishments. I personally know every owner or chain manager within 50 miles and I can say without a doubt that every one of them compete for any and all leagues they can get. I can also say that (without a doubt) none of them would exist without the league revenues; happy hours and purists simply can't/don't support the bottom line sufficiently.
IMO the best Billiard establishments are owned/managed by actual pool players; their equipment is typically better maintained and few I know even run and/or participate in leagues. These are the ones I look for.
Liking or hating leagues is obviously based on personal preferences but business is business.
sounds like everyone labels the problem the same If I wanted to pay 25 bucks for the apa membership for the year. I should be abel to play in any singles qualifiers. I do not like the team thing hate sandbagging. you win a chance to go to vegas that's were you win money if you do well plus they have the minis. no difference if I shot to good they will move my skill level up then disqualify me if they think I am sandbagging. I don't see a problem. and how is it bad for pool. IMO its the selfish people that don't want unknown players beating them.
also I will add its just a way for apa to make money if they require you to have x amount of games and be on an active roster it means more teams and more money in there pocket the payouts are less every year. its a joke. dues should cover flight hotel and a little spending money. and all states should pay out the same.
x amount of games to be active is an attempt to control sandbagging or one timers coming in under rated, winning money and leaving.
dues cover flight, hotel and spending money ? what do you think all that adds up to per person ?
I know some leagues pay for the season winning team to play in the annual Vegas tourny, but cap the amount of $. Those costs can add up to big numbers depending on where you fly from.
I dont play pool to make money and if that's why you do then you oughta go pro.
As for all states paying the same you gotta realize that all franchises are indecently owned and some areas are larger than others and thus can afford to pay more than smaller areas.
I also dont play apa just for the trip to Vegas but I have been there one time..
Like.i said....all areas are not the same but here is my cost and benefit analysis for the year I went to Vegas.
Cost.
25.00.yearly membership fee.
312.00.total weekly fees.
Total 337.00
Benefits..
Round trip ticket to Vegas
5 nights in a hotel of my choice in Vegas for me and my g/f who is also on the team
70.00.....my part of the travel money left over after plane tickets and rooms for the team
80.00 ....my part of the team show up money upon arriving in Vegas.
So for a total 337.00 I paid to apa I received a round trip ticket to Vegas....hotel room for 5 nights and 150.00 cash. I think I did alright for that 337.00 .
Now like I said ...i dont play apa just for the money or a trip. That 337 .00 yearly payment allows me to play the game I love in a competitive environment where I have the opportunity to play with old friends and make new friends.
C'mon, this is not rocket science. The goodies are there to entice people to play in the league. You want the goodies without playing in the league. The world does revolve around and arrange itself to suit your preferences.
Amazingly, they don't care a bit about people in your position because they care about themselves and their league players. Why in the world should they care one bit about people who do not want to play in their leagues?
Agree 100%.
Some people are so selfish they only care about how they benefit and/or complain if they don't get their way. They seem to think all businesses are making tons of profits and can afford to give out charity to everyone.
Balance, give and take, are foreign to them.