Don't miss these Joe Tucker videos about sidespin!@#
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JoeyA said:
Correct, right hand spin. You aren't going to make this ball with friction induced spin only. The point is that there is no way the object ball is going into the pocket here without getting reverse spin on it. And the only way that it gets enough reverse spin is by spin transfer.
At least that's how it plays for me. Maybe that's why you can give me 8:4 - which I will happily try next time we meet
JB Cases said:Correct, right hand spin. You aren't going to make this ball with friction induced spin only. The point is that there is no way the object ball is going into the pocket here without getting reverse spin on it. And the only way that it gets enough reverse spin is by spin transfer.
At least that's how it plays for me. Maybe that's why you can give me 8:4 - which I will happily try next time we meet
Man, I knew you were laying down a lemon with me at Banger's Paradise, when you passed through town a few years ago. I've been reading your posts for a while now and it seems your game was a little off from when we met.
It was fun meeting you and I'm sure we will cross paths again, then you can come off the stall and play some one pocket even up for some cheese. JoeyA
JoeyA said:Man, I knew you were laying down a lemon with me at Banger's Paradise, when you passed through town a few years ago. I've been reading your posts for a while now and it seems your game was a little off from when we met.
JoeyA
That was the best I ever played. Honest. Now my game and my bankroll is only good enough to play for Cheese Nips. But in the spirit of donating to the pool player's daily nut fund I will try you some even for $20 a game and about 10 game's worth, which should take you about 30 minutes.
You are also known as The Cannon Killer aren't you?
Here is an article that discusses transfer of side spin and the shot I mentioned above:Jason Robichaud said:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2007-05.pdf
Here is an article that describes some of the history of the controversy about transferred side: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2007-04.pdf One of the most famous billiard writers -- Riso Levi, who wrote more pages on billiards than any other author -- seems to have gotten it wrong.
Here is a diagram of the shot:
I am going to do a video while hitting some in the next couple of days. After you watch it... let me know why the spin doesn't transfer. I can get spin on the OB ball from coming across the line of shot and spin it picks up from contacting the rail, however, I get very very little from CB transfer. In your diagram of the example of transfer. I can't make the shot with the CB being below the OB. The CB has to be above the OB. I think the spin comes from the CB passing the face at an angle pushing the OB forward and spinning at same time. I could probably make this shot playing top or bottom instead of right.
Jason Robichaud said:
I can't explain why you haven't been able to observe spin transfer via the use of a stripped ball but try the shot I just tried.
1. Place the CB on the head spot.
2. Place a stripped ball with the stripe aligned vertically a couple of ball widths between the CB and the right corner pocket.
3. Place two balls on either side of the rails so as to reduce the pocket size to just 2.5 inches...i.e. just 1/8 in. clearance on either side of the CB as it enters the pocket.
4. Shoot fairly softly with maximum side and observe the lateral rotation of the stripped OB. It may take a few tries to make to stripped ball go without hitting the blocking balls but you will make it and when you do, you will A) observe the spin transfer and you will have confirmed that it IS spin transfer and not CIT that caused the lateral rotation becuase you had to hit the stripped ball square on the nose or you would have hit one of the blocker balls.
5. Now set up a similar shot with the CB on the spot and the stripped ball half way between the spot and the second diamond on the right short rail.
Shoot just as you did before...fairly softly and directly at the diamond. You will again observe the spin transfer onto the stripped ball AND it WILL NOT rebound directly back to the CB but will EASILY pass it on the side opposite of the english employed. That will equate to about a half diamond of altered departure angle back to the opposite long rail.
Since you struck the shot softly and confirmed that the OB traveled directly toward the diamond, there would be very little rail compression and no CIT so the altered rebound angle would therefore be almost entirely explained by spin transfer.
Bottom line though, I prefer to just assume that there will be some spin transfer but not a "whole lot."
I am not a fan of practicing to make shots "that don't go" but can be tricked on one way or the other...because such shots simply don't come up that often.
I'd rather practice so I don't miss shots that SHOULD go and I submit in evidence the 10 Ball match between JJ and Busta. JJ "lost" that match by missing a number of shots that were VERY makable...busta did not "WIN" it by making heroic shots.
I've done no scientific study but my observation over 40+ years is that at the pro level, 7 matches in are "lost" and not "won." (the B&R percentage is around 35% TOPS and the rest of the racks are "lost" by one player missing a makable shot and selling out.
In the A player category, the "loss percentage" is probably 80% scaling up to 99% for bangers.
So making the unmakables is FUN and will impress your friends and maybe win you some prop bets...like Vern Elliot made a living doing...but for match/tournament play I wouldn't spend 10 minutes a month worrying about the magnitude of spin transer.
Rather, I would work on playing shape precisely enough that spin transfer won't make any difference. Hell, Drago pots balls faster than he can SAY spin transfer!!!
(-:
All just MHO.
Regards,
Jim
Joe T
Well-known member
av84fun said:
This is an awesome message that I'm sure we've heard before but I believe it needs to become more common knowledge or more common talk to serve us all as a good reminder of what is actually happening out there.
Charlie Bryant was doing a great job commentating some of the 10 ball matches this past week and he was telling us how he likes to stat his own matches and keep count of unforced errors and his bottom line is obvious, the less I make, the more I win but again I think with more reminders like this that we have the more likely we are to actually make a difference in our game rather than just saying the words that sometimes lose their meaning.
Perhaps a casual score sheet between friends or even a sheet of paper you could hand to anyone watching you play that you could say, hey, everytime you see me do something weak put a check mark here?
you reallly don't want to get too caught up in keeping track of mistakes while you're playing but just knowing someone is might help keep you a little more focused and it'll remind you before going in to battle!
And thanks to everyone here who has viewed or commented on the videos & to those that have taken the time to say thanks by subscribing to them!!!
It's important to know that you don't want maximum side spin on the cue ball to get best transfer. The faster the cue ball is spinning, the more it slips on the surface of the object ball. That's why just moving across the surface of the object ball is surprisingly effective both for throw and spin transfer.Jason Robichaud said:
Try just half a tip of english.
Joe T
Well-known member
By Bob Jewitt
It's important to know that you don't want maximum side spin on the cue ball to get best transfer. The faster the cue ball is spinning, the more it slips on the surface of the object ball. That's why just moving across the surface of the object ball is surprisingly effective both for throw and spin transfer.
Try just half a tip of english.
This is very, very good advice. I was trying a cross over or reverse long rail bank that a friend of mine who is at B level could do and I couldn't. That is until I took a little something off it!
It's also very important to know on shots like this;
Simple straight in stop shot right. Well many times it's not your aim, your stroke or that you jumped up, it's that accidently half tip of english that your eyes aren't picking up on that throws the ball slighlty. I know it happens to me if I haven't been training my eyes and I know I've seen it happen to others but they really don't know what happened most of the time.
It's important to know that you don't want maximum side spin on the cue ball to get best transfer. The faster the cue ball is spinning, the more it slips on the surface of the object ball. That's why just moving across the surface of the object ball is surprisingly effective both for throw and spin transfer.
Try just half a tip of english.
This is very, very good advice. I was trying a cross over or reverse long rail bank that a friend of mine who is at B level could do and I couldn't. That is until I took a little something off it!
It's also very important to know on shots like this;
Simple straight in stop shot right. Well many times it's not your aim, your stroke or that you jumped up, it's that accidently half tip of english that your eyes aren't picking up on that throws the ball slighlty. I know it happens to me if I haven't been training my eyes and I know I've seen it happen to others but they really don't know what happened most of the time.
Here is another video from Dr. Dave which shows the transfer clearly:Jason Robichaud said:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-83.htm
While it's hard measure the pre-impact spin rate of the cueball directly, Dr. Dave states that these shots were done at medium tip offsets. Using that and the measured spin rate and speed of the object ball after impact, I calculate a spin transfer for the first shot in the range of 20%-36%, depending on exactly what tip offset is assumed. (I didn't measure the other two shots.)
On every shot, just before impact, the surface of the cueball is passing by the contact point on the object ball in a direction perpendicular to a line joining their centers. This is the "relative surface speed" between the balls. It's there because of the cut angle and/or spin on the cueball. It can be zero, as on a dead straight shot without any cueball spin, but generally it's not.Jason Robichaud said:
During impact, friction always acts to reduce this relative surface speed, whether it's there because of spin or cut angle, or both. So unless it was zero to begin with, there is always a change that takes place. Because of the properties of spheres, 36% of this change in surface speed always ends up as object ball spin.
In those cases where the surface speed is reduced to zero during impact (ie, the balls roll on each other at some point), the object ball takes up 36% of the entire initial surface speed as spin. And in those subcases where the surface speed is due only to cueball spin (eg, straight shots), the object ball then gets 36% of the cueball's spin...36% of it is transfered over. This happens, for instance, on stun shots at relatively modest tip offsets, up to around half of maximum english.
Jim
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A good remedy for this problem that I use is to always try not for a perfect stop shot but to use a little draw or follow. The added follow/draw will subtract from the effect of the side spin -- spin-induced throw is most effective on a stop shot. If I need a true stop shot, I try to be especially careful about any extraneous english. Some people like to play such shots with english so they know which way the ball will throw and they can plan for it and not be surprised by the extraneous stuff.Joe T said:
JB Cases said:That was the best I ever played. Honest. Now my game and my bankroll is only good enough to play for Cheese Nips. But in the spirit of donating to the pool player's daily nut fund I will try you some even for $20 a game and about 10 game's worth, which should take you about 30 minutes.
You are also known as The Cannon Killer aren't you?
It's been a long time since anyone called me that.
As for gambling, you were always a sport unlike some of
the lock artists.
JoeyA
WOW...THANKS!!!!!
As you know, you have prompted me to get more deeply involved in learning about the way you stroke with a combination of BHE and FHE. As you have pointed out to me, some players execute such strokes possibly without realizing that they are.
I've watched thousands of racks on TV, DVD, youtube etc. without detecting what they were doing but now I can recognize that technique...thanks to you.
Regards,
Jim
As you know, you have prompted me to get more deeply involved in learning about the way you stroke with a combination of BHE and FHE. As you have pointed out to me, some players execute such strokes possibly without realizing that they are.
I've watched thousands of racks on TV, DVD, youtube etc. without detecting what they were doing but now I can recognize that technique...thanks to you.
Regards,
Jim
Joe T said:This is an awesome message that I'm sure we've heard before but I believe it needs to become more common knowledge or more common talk to serve us all as a good reminder of what is actually happening out there.
Charlie Bryant was doing a great job commentating some of the 10 ball matches this past week and he was telling us how he likes to stat his own matches and keep count of unforced errors and his bottom line is obvious, the less I make, the more I win but again I think with more reminders like this that we have the more likely we are to actually make a difference in our game rather than just saying the words that sometimes lose their meaning.
Perhaps a casual score sheet between friends or even a sheet of paper you could hand to anyone watching you play that you could say, hey, everytime you see me do something weak put a check mark here?
you reallly don't want to get too caught up in keeping track of mistakes while you're playing but just knowing someone is might help keep you a little more focused and it'll remind you before going in to battle!
And thanks to everyone here who has viewed or commented on the videos & to those that have taken the time to say thanks by subscribing to them!!!
Joe T said:
The above is REALLY good stuff guys and girls...Listen up.
Bob...THANKS...I didn't realize that imparting max CB spin doesn't necessarily lead to max transfer.
And Joe...I have long felt (as many others do too) that missing the iontended tip-to-cb contact point is a MAJOR reason for missing shots...even among pros.
A while back I posted a comment on that point that I will repeat here....but with the disclaimer that we all have differing vision issues and what works for me may not work for others.
But I commented on the value of peripheral vision and notice that we SEE lots of things that are not in our center of gaze or "focus."
Without question, while focussing on the exact OB contact point just before the final stroke, we can still SEE the intended CB/tip contact point.
In pilot training, we are taught that you have to be consciously AWARE of the objects in your peripheral vision or your brain will just not register them....like not RECOGNIZING the names of businesses we pass by in our cars.
BUT...if you WILL yourself to RECOGNIZE them you can..while maintaining your center of gaze on the road ahead as usual.
Translating this to the shot...I make a CONSCIOUS effort to be AWARE of the exact spot on the CB that I want to hit with the tip and I do that while maintaining a LASER focus on the OB contact point.
For avoidance of doubt...one on fix my gaze on the OB contact point I DO NOT shift my focus back to the CB on the final stroke...but just DECIDE to be AWARE of that contact point as my forward stroke proceeds.
When I miss, in a significant portion of those cases, I realize that I have forgotten to maintain that AWARENESS and sure enough, the tip lands...say...a little inside instead of center ball and the dog is let out.
This is all very hard to explain in a post but you those who are interested will just get down over a shot and stroke away while keeping their gaze TOTALLY on the OB contact point...you will see that you can ALSO remain aware of the CB contact point.
At first, it will be helpful to use the marking on your CB as the target but soon, you can just visualize your contact point without that aid.
Again...this is merely what works for me but I will forever remain convinced that missing the intended CB contact point is a major reason for missing shots.
Regards,
Jim
Great Videos Joe
Joe
After watching your videos, I practiced some "side" shots and was very surprised. I am at a point in my game where I straightened my stroke out so that I can follow the c.b. on the same line as the o.b. on a straight in shot. My summer plan was going to be working on cut-shots with side because I usually miss inside backwards cut shots. I have been using the parallel method, now I see the flaw. You just made my summer much more productive, thanks. BTW I've had the 3rd Eye for a while and love it, but after watching your vidoes online, I couldn't order the lasertrainer and your dvd's fast enough. You have a lifelong student and fan. I am swamped at work this week, but I'll remember to subscribe next week.
Thanks
Joe
After watching your videos, I practiced some "side" shots and was very surprised. I am at a point in my game where I straightened my stroke out so that I can follow the c.b. on the same line as the o.b. on a straight in shot. My summer plan was going to be working on cut-shots with side because I usually miss inside backwards cut shots. I have been using the parallel method, now I see the flaw. You just made my summer much more productive, thanks. BTW I've had the 3rd Eye for a while and love it, but after watching your vidoes online, I couldn't order the lasertrainer and your dvd's fast enough. You have a lifelong student and fan. I am swamped at work this week, but I'll remember to subscribe next week.
Thanks