Double hit question - help Dr. Dave!

S

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I searched for this and couldn't find this question specifically.

As I was leaving the pool hall tonight a bunch of guys were debating over a shot in the league. See diagram:

CueTable Help




The cue ball was 1/4 - 1/2" away from the 10 ball and almost straight into the pocket. They were trying to demonstrate to each other how to "legally" get position on the 8. One particularly loud guy from the UK who is an average player at best tried to "demonstrate" the proper way. I just had to walk up and say that the APA league may allow things like this, but technically this is a foul if the cue ball goes forward of the tangent line, no matter how much they try to elevate or think they got the cue out of the way quick enough.

My understanding was outside of a chalk cube width (1" or so) it's more of a judgement call, and then legal hits are possible and you can even impart some wicked force follow legally. But within that distance, it's very difficult if not impossible to get a legal hit with the cue ball going forward (as evidenced in some of Dr. Dave's vids), and if it does go forward legally it's only slightly, certainly not enough to roll down a diamond or so for shape.

One or two of the guys, including the UK guy, argued for a while, especially telling me that snooker players can do this all the time and they are better blah blah blah. While I agree that snooker players typically have great fundamentals and shotmaking ability, that doesn't allow them to defy the laws of physics...

But then I was thinking - could I be wrong? So I wanted to check. Again, I think in USA at least if cue ball is frozen to object ball current rules allow you to make a clean legal stroke anyway you want (no more need to shoot away like you used to), but within 1" or so if the cue ball goes forward of the contact tangent line it's 100% a foul, and certainly no way to follow forward for shape from that close. Snooker rules may be different as to what is legal, but that doesn't mean the above scenario still isn't a double hit. Much like the famous close proximity jump shot - legal, but still a double hit as proven on high speed video.

Chime in please to confirm, or please tell me if there is a legal way to follow 1 - 2' forward from a shot this close (without aiming away and doing some sort of full masse or something if the balls are really close together).

Thanks,
Scott
 
scottjen26 said:
I searched for this and couldn't find this question specifically.

As I was leaving the pool hall tonight a bunch of guys were debating over a shot in the league. See diagram:

CueTable Help




The cue ball was 1/4 - 1/2" away from the 10 ball and almost straight into the pocket. They were trying to demonstrate to each other how to "legally" get position on the 8. One particularly loud guy from the UK who is an average player at best tried to "demonstrate" the proper way. I just had to walk up and say that the APA league may allow things like this, but technically this is a foul if the cue ball goes forward of the tangent line, no matter how much they try to elevate or think they got the cue out of the way quick enough.

My understanding was outside of a chalk cube width (1" or so) it's more of a judgement call, and then legal hits are possible and you can even impart some wicked force follow legally. But within that distance, it's very difficult if not impossible to get a legal hit with the cue ball going forward (as evidenced in some of Dr. Dave's vids), and if it does go forward legally it's only slightly, certainly not enough to roll down a diamond or so for shape.

One or two of the guys, including the UK guy, argued for a while, especially telling me that snooker players can do this all the time and they are better blah blah blah. While I agree that snooker players typically have great fundamentals and shotmaking ability, that doesn't allow them to defy the laws of physics...

But then I was thinking - could I be wrong? So I wanted to check. Again, I think in USA at least if cue ball is frozen to object ball current rules allow you to make a clean legal stroke anyway you want (no more need to shoot away like you used to), but within 1" or so if the cue ball goes forward of the contact tangent line it's 100% a foul, and certainly no way to follow forward for shape from that close. Snooker rules may be different as to what is legal, but that doesn't mean the above scenario still isn't a double hit. Much like the famous close proximity jump shot - legal, but still a double hit as proven on high speed video.

Chime in please to confirm, or please tell me if there is a legal way to follow 1 - 2' forward from a shot this close (without aiming away and doing some sort of full masse or something if the balls are really close together).

Thanks,
Scott
Click to expand...

From everything I've been told, it sounds like you are correct. If the cue ball is within a chalk distance to object ball and you shoot through the cue ball, making it pass where the object ball was resting, then it's a foul. If you jack up your cue and the cue ball draws backward it can be considered a good hit.
Play it safe and don't get so close to your work LOL. JMHO
 
Neil said:
It is very possible to follow that shot several diamonds on a good hit, and there are several ways to do it. The way to tell if you double hit it is to watch the cb. If it follows immediately, and at about the same speed, you double hit it. If it hesitates after contact, and then goes forward at a slower speed, you made a good hit.

To avoid the double kiss on the cb- don't follow through on the shot. One way to do this is for the table to stop your hand. Set the tip very close to the cb, and then put your hand tight against the edge of the table. Then pull back and shoot. Your hand will stop your followthrough. Another way is to lower the back of the cue below the tip. Shoot upwards across the very top of the cb. Your tip will be off the cb in time to avoid the double hit, and will be going up away from the cb.
Click to expand...

You are correct,, but don't try it at the BCA with a referee watching the hit. They will call it bad 99.9% of the time. I know what you mean and I personally know when I hit it good or bad. I will call a foul on myself and have in the past, but as a general rule, if it goes forward it will be called a bad hit. It's just one of those goofy things that referees call bad all the time.
 
Neil said:
It is very possible to follow that shot several diamonds on a good hit, and there are several ways to do it. The way to tell if you double hit it is to watch the cb. If it follows immediately, and at about the same speed, you double hit it. If it hesitates after contact, and then goes forward at a slower speed, you made a good hit.

To avoid the double kiss on the cb- don't follow through on the shot. One way to do this is for the table to stop your hand. Set the tip very close to the cb, and then put your hand tight against the edge of the table. Then pull back and shoot. Your hand will stop your followthrough. Another way is to lower the back of the cue below the tip. Shoot upwards across the very top of the cb. Your tip will be off the cb in time to avoid the double hit, and will be going up away from the cb.
Click to expand...




Ooooouch.....SPF=randyg
 
tucson9ball said:
You are correct,, but don't try it at the BCA with a referee watching the hit. They will call it bad 99.9% of the time. I know what you mean and I personally know when I hit it good or bad. I will call a foul on myself and have in the past, but as a general rule, if it goes forward it will be called a bad hit. It's just one of those goofy things that referees call bad all the time.
Click to expand...

What Referees?......SPF=randyg
 
I have links to lots of videos that explain and demonstrate how to detect and avoid double hits here:


NV B.49-NV B.52 show several techniques that can be used for a very small gap (much smaller than a chalk width).

Regards,
Dave

scottjen26 said:
I searched for this and couldn't find this question specifically.

As I was leaving the pool hall tonight a bunch of guys were debating over a shot in the league. See diagram:

CueTable Help




The cue ball was 1/4 - 1/2" away from the 10 ball and almost straight into the pocket. They were trying to demonstrate to each other how to "legally" get position on the 8. One particularly loud guy from the UK who is an average player at best tried to "demonstrate" the proper way. I just had to walk up and say that the APA league may allow things like this, but technically this is a foul if the cue ball goes forward of the tangent line, no matter how much they try to elevate or think they got the cue out of the way quick enough.

My understanding was outside of a chalk cube width (1" or so) it's more of a judgement call, and then legal hits are possible and you can even impart some wicked force follow legally. But within that distance, it's very difficult if not impossible to get a legal hit with the cue ball going forward (as evidenced in some of Dr. Dave's vids), and if it does go forward legally it's only slightly, certainly not enough to roll down a diamond or so for shape.

One or two of the guys, including the UK guy, argued for a while, especially telling me that snooker players can do this all the time and they are better blah blah blah. While I agree that snooker players typically have great fundamentals and shotmaking ability, that doesn't allow them to defy the laws of physics...

But then I was thinking - could I be wrong? So I wanted to check. Again, I think in USA at least if cue ball is frozen to object ball current rules allow you to make a clean legal stroke anyway you want (no more need to shoot away like you used to), but within 1" or so if the cue ball goes forward of the contact tangent line it's 100% a foul, and certainly no way to follow forward for shape from that close. Snooker rules may be different as to what is legal, but that doesn't mean the above scenario still isn't a double hit. Much like the famous close proximity jump shot - legal, but still a double hit as proven on high speed video.

Chime in please to confirm, or please tell me if there is a legal way to follow 1 - 2' forward from a shot this close (without aiming away and doing some sort of full masse or something if the balls are really close together).

Thanks,
Scott
Click to expand...
 
Perhaps I should have been a little more clear when I posted this at 1am.

I'm aware of the hand or knuckle stop shot, and am also aware of being able to shoot upwards or using the fouette shot for draw. But thanks to the posters who mentioned those possibilities. I checked your website last night Dave, didn't see this particular shot discussed, but I think I only looked in the HSV section. Thanks for pointing out the NV videos.

My question was: As diagrammed, with just a slightly elevated cue and a normal stroke, I don't believe there is any way to make the ball and follow forward a foot or two when the ball is 1/2" away from the cue ball. Even if 1 out of 100 hits might be good somehow (the cue barely misses the cue ball the second time), it would be called a foul based on current rules and by any competent and knowledgable player watching the hit. And this shot certainly couldn't be made by the barely-average players I saw attempting to execute it, one of whom was sure he was making a legal hit because he was snatching his cue back faster than the other guys, even though the cue ball was clearly traveling at about the same speed as the object ball with no pause. And I certainly don't believe his claim that this physics-based act is somehow different in the game of snooker or somehow more easily accomplished by snooker players. It's a difficult shot to hit cleanly even if you are not trying to move the cue ball forward or back after contact.

Thanks,
Scott
 
scottjen26 said:
My question was: As diagrammed, with just a slightly elevated cue and a normal stroke, I don't believe there is any way to make the ball and follow forward a foot or two when the ball is 1/2" away from the cue ball.
Click to expand...
If by "normal stroke" you also mean "a normal follow through," then I agree.

scottjen26 said:
... And this shot certainly couldn't be made by the barely-average players I saw attempting to execute it, one of whom was sure he was making a legal hit because he was snatching his cue back faster than the other guys, even though the cue ball was clearly traveling at about the same speed as the object ball with no pause
Click to expand...
If you can't convince people like this, refer them to (or make them watch):

NV B.63 - Instruction for pool rules quiz (part 2: small gap between the CB and OB)​

They might learn something (... or not).

Regards,
Dave
 
scottjen26 said:
Chime in please to confirm, or please tell me if there is a legal way to follow 1 - 2' forward from a shot this close (without aiming away and doing some sort of full masse or something if the balls are really close together).

Thanks,
Scott
Click to expand...

There is definitely a legal way to get that follow at the short distance without a full masse' or aiming away. Ask a decent billiard player. They seem to see this shot more than pool players.

The wording in the rule book is a guideline for watching. In my opinion, the wording has cause more confusion than it intended.

Fred
 
Sam...Jacking up and drawing the CB is only one option. What Randyg didn't say, in his post, is that we teach how to stroke this shot legally, without any kind of foul. Also, iirc, the rules have been changed. The "if the CB follows more than a cube of chalk, it is a foul" rule is no longer in effect. Neil was correct in his description of the "knuckle stop" shot...but I wouldn't use that. As Randyg said...ouch! I personally would not use the 'upwards' stroke either. There is no need to. This is a 'finesse' bridge shot. You get your bridge hand VERY close to the CB, and move your grip hand way up on the butt of the cue (at or near the front of the wrap area). The stroke length is determined by having the tip stop naturally, just past where the tip touches the CB. We call this the "Pierce Factor". Having a personal shooting template, and knowing the range of your stroke, allows one to learn how to shoot these shots effectively (and legally), whether playing follow, stop, or draw. This is kind of difficult to describle here, but it is very easily demonstrated at the pool table.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

poolplayer2093 said:
you have to jack up and draw the cb into the rail and back out
Click to expand...
 
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