double-hits, frozen balls, youtube instruction

mikepage said:
Has anybody ever seen a push-shot foul called on somebody? If so, what was the shot?
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I don't think I've ever seen the sort of push shot where you come up very slowly to the cue ball and then accelerate. Or at least, not in a game. There was a semi-road player around here who could do push shots pretty well, but I only saw him do them as demos of the technique.
 
In books and alot of rule systems I have always heard that if the cueball is frozen the shot is a foul no matter how it is stroked. I have also heard rule systems that say the shot is illegal when the object ball cue ball and cue are touching simultaniously. Still other rule systems alow for a frozen ball shot when the cue is elevated.

Phil Capelle in his glossary of terms defines a push shot as being either frozen or within a chalk length.

What is the correct definition. I thought I knew and now I am not sure.
 
Aiming to make another ball

Mike, in the video, you showed Bobs version of the interference system when you are going to make another ball.

The way I have always done this is to take a line from/through the object ball to the ball that is to be made. Where that lines exits the object ball is the aiming point.

Little less confusing and easier to find the aim point.
 
mnorwood said:
... What is the correct definition. I thought I knew and now I am not sure.
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Here is what the RSB FAQ had/has to say about it:

5. ** What is a push shot?

Careful! There is some variation in usage of this term, so you
need to make it clear which way you are using the word.

First, a "push out" is something very different from a "push shot". At
nine ball, the first shot after the break can be played as a push out
if declared in advance, and the requirements of ball and rail contact
are waived. The incoming player can pass the shot back to the pusher.

At pool, a push shot involves a very special kind of stroke and is
played when the cue ball is frozen to the object ball -- this stroke is
a foul. (At pool it is legal to shoot towards a ball the cue ball is
frozen to, assuming no other foul, and with a normal stroke.) In a
push shot, the tip is brought slowly, slowly, very slowly up to the cue
ball until it is just touching or about to touch, and then the tip is
accelerated for the shot. Two examples:

1. A ball is frozen to the rail close to a corner pocket. The cue ball
is frozen to the object ball and straight out from the rail. The shot
is straight towards the object ball, with the tip placed on the equator
of the cue ball with lots of side away from the pocket. Once very
gentle contact of tip-to-ball is made the tip is gradually pushed
forward and the object ball sort of slips out from behind the cue ball
and goes straight into the near pocket.

2. The cue ball is on the foot spot, and an object ball is frozen as if
it had been spotted; both are on the long string. A desirable object
ball is in the jaws of one of the foot pockets. A legal way to pocket
the hung ball is to point the cue stick at a point on the foot rail
half way between the center of the rail and the target pocket, and
shoot a normal center ball stroke. An illegal push shot is to elevate
the butt of the stick to about 45 degrees, address the cue ball for
extreme follow, and shoot a gradual push shot. In this case the cue
ball will nearly ignore the object ball, and go close to the line of
aim, rather than the double "angle" of the first (legal) method.

At pool, when the cue ball is close to but not frozen to the object
ball, and the cue ball is shot straight at the object ball with a
normal stroke, usually a "double hit" occurs. This is a foul.

At snooker, you are not permitted to play the cue ball towards a ball
it is frozen to, nor to play double hits.

At carom billiards, "push shot" includes any shot where the cue ball
is close to or touching the object ball and the shot is a foul.

6. ** What is the "Diamond System"?​
 
klockdoc said:
Mike, in the video, you showed Bobs version of the interference system when you are going to make another ball.

The way I have always done this is to take a line from/through the object ball to the ball that is to be made. Where that lines exits the object ball is the aiming point.

Little less confusing and easier to find the aim point.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. But the correct aim for these shots frequently is toward no part of the object ball.
 
Neil said:
I just tried his method on my table. It works great! And is easier to aim. Just draw a line from the object ball to the frozen ball. Where that line touches the frozen ball, aim the center of the cueball there. I was amazed at some of the far apart caroms that I just made. And I am not talking about ones sitting on the lip of the pocket.
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That's really weird, because I just went down to my table to do the same thing, and it's not even close.

If you put an object ball anywhere along the center line of the table, and freeze the cueball to aim straight down the center line (to the middle of the foot rail), then the correct aim--from anywhere--to scratch in the corner pocket is straight toward the first diamond on the foot rail.

This method--again unless I don't understand it--doesn't give that.

Also, I froze two balls to each other and to the long rail at many positions along the long rail and used this method to try to scratch in an opposite corner pocket. It's way way off for most positions.
 
mikepage said:
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. But the correct aim for these shots frequently is toward no part of the object ball.
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Mike what I am saying is that you draw a line through the object ball like in the diagram.

Where that line exits the object ball, (closest to the ball to be caromed), that is your aiming point.

CueTable Help

 
OK, that's what I thought. So in your diagram here if you want to hit the cueball into the far side pocket, it looks like you're saying to aim toward the foot rail near the corner pocket. Right? Do you really think that would work?

klockdoc said:
Mike what I am saying is that you draw a line through the object ball like in the diagram.

Where that line exits the object ball, (closest to the ball to be caromed), that is your aiming point.

CueTable Help

Click to expand...
 
Neil said:
I just tried his method on my table. It works great! And is easier to aim. Just draw a line from the object ball to the frozen ball. Where that line touches the frozen ball, aim the center of the cueball there. I was amazed at some of the far apart caroms that I just made. And I am not talking about ones sitting on the lip of the pocket.
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As Mike pointed out, that method doesn't come close for thin hits on the frozen ball. Imagine a target nearly along the kiss line, and shoot the cue ball to the spot on the frozen object ball that is closest to the target. The resulting angle of the cue ball will be 45 degrees to the angle of the stick and not the nearly 90 degrees that you want.

For relatively full hits, it is possible to figure out how accurate the shot should be based on the known accuracy of the two-times-fuller system. The "closest point" system is wrong by roughly 1/3 and will send the cue ball too straight ahead.

I suspect that your success came from not accurately picking out the actual imaginary point on the far side of the object ball.
 
another use of this system

Mike and Bob,

I also use this system to play safe on balls when I do not have a decent shot afterwards.

See in this diagram, I do not have a good shot following even if I make the 1 in the side. I decided to play safe.

I draw a line exiting the object ball and using running english, it t will snuggle up against the 8 ball.

It is really a pretty universal application. It can be used in other situations if you are a little creative.

CueTable Help

 
It is really a pretty universal application.
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This is an entirely different kind of shot than the CB-frozen-to-OB shots Mike is talking about. Aiming at the "centerline exit point" on the first object ball is a well known method for these kind of shots (although not particularly reliable over a wide range of shots and conditions), but it won't work with CB-frozen-to-OB shots unless the alignment just happens to be the same as Jewett's - that's not the other system working; that's Jewett's system working and the other system just happening to line up with it occasionally, like a broken clock being right twice a day.

pj
chgo
 
mikepage said:
Here's my latest:

clarifies the difference between a double-hit foul and a push-shot foul.

How to aim frozen balls --Jewett interference system

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rip8xwobksc
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Real nice, Mike.

I like showing only the hands and the equipment rather than a full body shot - not that you aren't a pleasure to look at, but it's easier to focus on what you're demonstrating. However, I think I'd like to see more live action demos interspersed with the graphics, just to liven things up a little.

Again, great stuff.

pj
chgo
 
Klockdoc said:
It is really a pretty universal application.
Click to expand...

Patrick Johnson said:
This is an entirely different kind of shot than the CB-frozen-to-OB shots Mike is talking about. Aiming at the "centerline exit point" on the first object ball is a well known method for these kind of shots (although not particularly reliable over a wide range of shots and conditions), but it won't work with CB-frozen-to-OB shots unless the alignment just happens to be the same as Jewett's - that's not the other system working; that's Jewett's system working and the other system just happening to line up with it occasionally, like a broken clock being right twice a day.

pj
chgo
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I mentioned that it is a universal application because it can be used in a variety of ways. Not specifically for frozen balls only. One just needs to experiment (as in any system), in different methods to understand and find its limitations.

I guess it does have its restrictions, in frozen ball situations, (similar to the interference system and its afore mentioned restrictions based on cue ball placement).

Granted, it is an older system, but some on this forum are new and not familiar with this and its application. Being that it lined up, (and I believe it is more than a "once a day" occurrence in a frozen ball situation), it presented an opportunity to present it to the board. There are more times that this system can be used for other applications than specifically a frozen situation.

Bob's system is a definite plus to learn and a valuable tool. Doesn't hurt to have something extra there to cross reference your thought process.

I didn't state it to deter anyone from using Bobs system or to downgrade it by saying there was something better out there. Only added it to say there was another way to look at it.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Real nice, Mike.

I like showing only the hands and the equipment rather than a full body shot - not that you aren't a pleasure to look at, but it's easier to focus on what you're demonstrating.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and I didn't like having to wear clothes in the other video anyway. This was more comfortable.

However, I think I'd like to see more live action demos interspersed with the graphics, just to liven things up a little.

Again, great stuff.

pj
chgo
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Thanks Pat.

I was thinking the same thing--after I was done and looked at it--that it would have been better to intersperse more live stuff.

I try not to dilly or dally on the more ...ahem... academic segments, but I also want to be clear. Sometimes that ends up..., well ..., you know ....
 
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