Double or nothing WTF To think

[christyd]

Thank you for your intelligent posting and positive contribution to the collective knowledge of the group. Now that you have all had a group fun hug and kiss, go sleep some and wake up productive instead of b.ing.social.yet.useless.schmucks.

The information regarding big green chunks refers to the fact that these guys could see I was sick as a dog and were picking on observed weakness. Comment, intelligent, other, please?.

It was a real question, doubling up, y'all have been very instructive/insular/ helpful/NOT/ so far.

Kevin

I apologize for the useless comments.
Your first mistake was competing while you were ill.
My advice concerning doubling up? Never let your opponent get even in one set. If you do, it is very likely this situation will occur again.

Christyd

 

[jhendri2]

Kevin

Never let your opponent get even in one set. If you do, it is very likely this situation will occur again.

Christyd

Very true...

Jim

 

[Celtic]

I dont know why Kevin got all that flack from you guys in the beginning. His post could have been clearer but it was still pretty clear that he was ticked off due to allowing a guy to break even in a single set after loosing a few for smaller stakes.

As to the actual question, it really depends on whether you truely feel you are better and should win the sets. Double or nothing is not to the advantage of either party, while it gives a guy a chance to break even and get out of a bad night of loosing in a single set it can also make that guy lose twice as much and REALLY feel a sting. If he asks to play double or nothing and you feel you are the favorite to win then play him and beat him, if he beats you he will be even but if not you can really take it to him. Your stakes are tiny, but lets face it if you have him down $6 and win 3 double or nothing sets in a row then he will all of the sudden be a $48 looser, that is the risk going double or nothing holds when you are the one trying to break even. Double or nothing is a HUGE risk to the person who is down and gives the player who is up a chance to make alot more money then the original stake.

It is only a bad move to give him a double or nothing set if you lose Kevin, beat him a few times like that if you are truely better and you will take him for alot more money then your starting stakes. I played a guy in Vegas 3 sets of 9-ball for $20 a set, once I was up 3 sets he asked me to play a last set for double or nothing. I ended up making $120 off him in 4 sets and never risked more then $20 of my own money and then only on the first set. Double or nothing is only a bad move if you lose, and it sounds like you just keep losing those double or nothing sets.

 

[cubswin]

I dont know why Kevin got all that flack from you guys in the beginning. His post could have been clearer but it was still pretty clear that he was ticked off due to allowing a guy to break even in a single set after loosing a few for smaller stakes.

As to the actual question, it really depends on whether you truely feel you are better and should win the sets. Double or nothing is not to the advantage of either party, while it gives a guy a chance to break even and get out of a bad night of loosing in a single set it can also make that guy lose twice as much and REALLY feel a sting. If he asks to play double or nothing and you feel you are the favorite to win then play him and beat him, if he beats you he will be even but if not you can really take it to him. Your stakes are tiny, but lets face it if you have him down $6 and win 3 double or nothing sets in a row then he will all of the sudden be a $48 looser, that is the risk going double or nothing holds when you are the one trying to break even. Double or nothing is a HUGE risk to the person who is down and gives the player who is up a chance to make alot more money then the original stake.

It is only a bad move to give him a double or nothing set if you lose Kevin, beat him a few times like that if you are truely better and you will take him for alot more money then your starting stakes. I played a guy in Vegas 3 sets of 9-ball for $20 a set, once I was up 3 sets he asked me to play a last set for double or nothing. I ended up making $120 off him in 4 sets and never risked more then $20 of my own money and then only on the first set. Double or nothing is only a bad move if you lose, and it sounds like you just keep losing those double or nothing sets.

I played a guy years ago for five a game, started doubling up with him. Ended up winning about 300 in cash and his joss cue. This was back in the early 90's or late 80's. He got so flustered he couldn't make a ball, but wouldn't stop playing until he lost it all. I didn't care if I won or lost until the last three games when the money started to get serious. (at least serious for a college student without a job)

I had exactly 5 dollars of my own money at risk, and ended up with about 700 all told after selling the cue.

 

[chefjeff]

I played a guy years ago for five a game, started doubling up with him. Ended up winning about 300 in cash and his joss cue. This was back in the early 90's or late 80's. He got so flustered he couldn't make a ball, but wouldn't stop playing until he lost it all. I didn't care if I won or lost until the last three games when the money started to get serious. (at least serious for a college student without a job)

I had exactly 5 dollars of my own money at risk, and ended up with about 700 all told after selling the cue.

Nice return, cubswin. I hope you didn't bet all of it on the Cubs?

Kevin, the main thing to remember is that each bet is made on its own terms. If you've won and have the money in your pocket, it's YOURS. You are not playing on HIS money ever. Even cubswin, above, was playing his last bet with HIS money, not his opponent's.

So, my advice from my gambling days is to start each bet from scratch as if you've just arrived at the pool hall. This way, you'll know exactly how much YOU have in your pocket at the start of each bet and will bet accordingly.

The past is gone; what gives now?

Jeff Livingston

 

[cubswin]

Nice return, cubswin. I hope you didn't bet all of it on the Cubs?

Kevin, the main thing to remember is that each bet is made on its own terms. If you've won and have the money in your pocket, it's YOURS. You are not playing on HIS money ever. Even cubswin, above, was playing his last bet with HIS money, not his opponent's.

So, my advice from my gambling days is to start each bet from scratch as if you've just arrived at the pool hall. This way, you'll know exactly how much YOU have in your pocket at the start of each bet and will bet accordingly.

The past is gone; what gives now?

Jeff Livingston

No, wouldn't bet on the Cubs. Love the Cubs, will gladly spend money on cubs merchandise. But not going to bet on them.

and while I would agree once the money hits my pocket its mine, in this case it was simply a promise for money when we were done playing. Which is never a sure thing even when your playing with friends. Only do that with people I trust, and only been burned a few times by it. One of those was the same guy from the above story about six months later, he ran out of cash and items I'd take in trade. Oh well, if he'd of made good on it I would've been happy to let it slide for months if not years. In this case its been more than a decade.

 

[jhendri2]

Why not double up? It allows your opponent to get on a roll in one game/set. Going back to even can be a real confidence boost after losing for a while. Never let'em off the hook.

Jim

 

[stolz2]

Good question Kevin. I got Grady's tape on money pool just for a laugh, and I must say that I didn't understand his rule on never doubling up. He didn't explain why, which leaves us a lot to ponder over.

I am glad you stuck with you guns and insisted on having your question answered.

BTW, I have seen no one answer why Grady does what he does. Maybe we need Grady to appear (he is a poster here) and explain his reasoning.

ww

Now the original post is making more sense. When was the last time grady posted?

Mack

 

[Rickw]

All things being equal, I'd say when you're ahead, never raise the bet to let your opponent get back even in one or two sets. If you really want to gamble and take a chance, go ahead and let your opponent double up and you either win big or you go bust.

 

[wayne]

Good question Kevin. I got Grady's tape on money pool just for a laugh, and I must say that I didn't understand his rule on never doubling up. He didn't explain why, which leaves us a lot to ponder over.

I am glad you stuck with you guns and insisted on having your question answered.

BTW, I have seen no one answer why Grady does what he does. Maybe we need Grady to appear (he is a poster here) and explain his reasoning.

ww

I can guarantee you Grady was not referring to not doubling up when you are playing for a dollar and 50 cents. LOL

Best guess is that Grady plays for high stakes and having made a good score to give it all back by doubling up is not a good idea. I mean if you have won $15,000 at $5,000 a set and then double up and lose one set and have nothing to show, that sucks.

So the no doubling up rule would apply to what you consider high stakes (if $1.50 is high stake to original poster, DO NOT double up LOL). Low stakes it wouldn't apply because you are not going to win or lose a substantial amount (unless you continue to double up). My guess is Grady would agree with that.

Wayne

 

[APA9]

Now the original post is making more sense. When was the last time grady posted?

Mack

I doubt the $1.50/set action will spark a response from Grady.

 

[Kevin]

Best guess is that Grady plays for high stakes and having made a good score to give it all back by doubling up is not a good idea. I mean if you have won $15,000 at $5,000 a set and then double up and lose one set and have nothing to show, that sucks.

So the no doubling up rule would apply to what you consider high stakes (if $1.50 is high stake to original poster, DO NOT double up LOL). Wayne

I'm back. Most I've played for, and care to for that matter, is race to 3 1pocket for $100, but that isn't normal, $10 is more like it for my tastes, laugh if you like. I certainly don't consider $1.50 high stakes, as Williebetmore was onto, it is the ego thing that bugs me, and letting down in the last set after going two up. It's about me, you see, not him.

I do appreciate the comments, and valid points from others concerning "if you are the better player, in the long run doubling up will pay off" and to take each bet as starting from square one on it's own terms, and taking it up a step to stay focused.

I also would enjoy a taste of extended Grady logic on the subject. On his "gambling secrets" video, he explains he doesn't like changing handicaps that night if you are winner because at most you get one or two more sets, then you would be asked to change the handicap again next time, so it isn't worth it overall. Makes sense.

 

[Williebetmore]

he doesn't like changing handicaps that night if you are winner because at most you get one or two more sets, then you would be asked to change the handicap again next time, so it isn't worth it overall. Makes sense.

Kevin,
This is certainly a valid point. I do believe there are DEFINITELY many times where this is not true however. Many times I have been offered double or nothing when the opponent was either going to quit or play one more double or nothing set - I always go for the chance to play one more (I don't care about the money, I just like to play). If you have won the session (and not doubled the stake at the end) I feel it is extremely likely your opponent is going to ask for a change in the handicap anyway (they always do around here), so I don't avoid double or nothing for that reason.

P.S. - obviously Grady's experience in these matters is far superior to mine, I'm just speaking from a personal/local viewpoint - things may be different elsewhere.

 

[vapoolplayer]

I always go for the chance to play one more (I don't care about the money, I just like to play).

spoken like a true working joe........LOL.


imagine if you didn't have a job........and you are up 5000 that it took you 8-40 hours to win............now would you let the guy double up?

VAP

 

[Williebetmore]

spoken like a true working joe........LOL.


imagine if you didn't have a job........and you are up 5000 that it took you 8-40 hours to win............now would you let the guy double up?

VAP

VAP,
It depends on 2 things: me and the opponent. If I'm a true degenerate gambler (giving up a life of security for the "excitement" of the road), then I'll let any guy double up, even if he's better than me - because all these gamblers are just seeking that adrenaline rush, not the money. Nothing gives you that rush like being in over your head.

Now if I'm the "super smart professional money making machine" type of gambler as most around here fancy themselves; then I probably wouldn't double up UNLESS my skill level was significantly higher than theirs (and since I was probably stalling in the first games, I was probably the one that offered the double or nothing in hopes of making one last big score before I slink out of town - I'm not worried about retribution since I travel with a backer who never sleeps and is a black belt in 3 different martial arts, and a trained marksman who travels packing heat).

Now if I'm just a normal Joe, who loves to play pool, has respect for the game and my opponent (this is just a wild supposition, we know this situation doesn't really exist) - I would try to ascertain my opponents reason for doubling. If he's just trying to salve his ego, and if the bet is not going to hurt him financially - why not give him a chance to get even? If he's in over his head, then I wouldn't double up, and I wouldn't even play one more regular set with him - I don't want anyone's "college money for the kids."

 

[vapoolplayer]

Now if I'm the "super smart professional money making machine" type of gambler as most around here fancy themselves;

best sentence i've read on here in a while..........thank you for that willie.

VAP

 

[RSB-Refugee]

So I win one lose one, win one, win next two, then the hustle comes. "double or nothing". Close sets, he comes out even, winning one set to my two. Had I won, 6$ winner, instead, even.
.............................
phsychology of "double or nothing", help.

It sounds like you are resigned to losing at least one out of three games, and in your mind 'he is due'. Don't let that crap, creep into your head. So what if you break even, it wont hurt you. You have to get past the fear of losing, if you want to win.
As it is, this thing is getting in your head. Try to remember he has thoughts running through his head too. If you can figure out what makes him tick, then a solution to your problem, will become evident.
You say "Close sets, he comes out even, winning one set to my two.". I think you meant to say 'playing even, he comes out one game down out of three', there is a huge difference. It sounds to me like you may be a locksmith. Maybe with this guy, you should be playing races, you to 6 and him to 3. With this scenario, he would not feel like you are robbing him and probably be far less likely to bring-up the double-or-nothing option in the first place.

Tracy

 

[Jimmy M.]

spoken like a true working joe........LOL.


imagine if you didn't have a job........and you are up 5000 that it took you 8-40 hours to win............now would you let the guy double up?

VAP

Which is exactly why I rarely get the chance to gamble anymore. Or rather, why I choose not to so often. I've been on both sides of this. Back when I didn't work and was just trying to scuffle up a living, I used to think those working guys were scared to play me when they would decline my offers. As it turns out, they just knew that I'd pull all those so-called "smart moves" to ensure that I got the money at the end. Now I'm in their position and, to be honest, I get offers to play, some times from people that I feel like I'm supposed to beat, but I turn them down quite often because I know that, if I happen to get down a set, all those "smart moves" will come out and, in the end, the best I can probably do is get even or win 1 set. I'd rather just put up the maximum amount that I'm willing to lose and play a long ahead set. At least I know that I have a chance to win as much as I'm willing to lose, regardless of what all happens in between.

 

[Kevin]

It sounds like you are resigned to losing at least one out of three games, and in your mind 'he is due'. Don't let that crap, creep into your head. So what if you break even, it wont hurt you. You have to get past the fear of losing, if you want to win.
As it is, this thing is getting in your head. Try to remember he has thoughts running through his head too. If you can figure out what makes him tick, then a solution to your problem, will become evident.
You say "Close sets, he comes out even, winning one set to my two.". I think you meant to say 'playing even, he comes out one game down out of three', there is a huge difference. It sounds to me like you may be a locksmith. Maybe with this guy, you should be playing races, you to 6 and him to 3. With this scenario, he would not feel like you are robbing him and probably be far less likely to bring-up the double-or-nothing option in the first place.

Tracy

It does get into my head. Bugs me a bit that I let up in the last case set. Perhaps you missed the start, but these are handicapped sets, I race to 5, him to 4. And we do usually split sets fairly evenly, me getting the better of it over the long haul, though I can dog the case 9 when it is short and almost straight in (grrrrr).

Tonight for example we played 6 sets, no bets on the first 5. He played from 3pm all day, I came in cold at 11pm, he gets first set 4-2. Then I'm warmed up and next 4 sets go 5-3, 5-0, 5-2, and the last set he offers our "beer match" signalling he is done for the night, last set. I win tonight 5-0. I was playing well, and he had maybe 5 chances at the table each set, 2 were very good safeties, giving him 2-3 long yet legitimate chances to take charge... he did, but dogged a later shot if he didn't get out. The matches he won I cleared most off then dogged it and left him easy outs. This happens. Mostly 2 inning matches on average.

I may be a locksmith... but then I -never- offer to play for money first with anyone, am perfectly happy playing for fun. Once they offer it, I consider my odds, and accept when it seems in my favor. If that be locksmithing, fine, but I'm not out creating these situations with intent to take money, the other guy offers it first in every case. I'm in the 85% range of stronger players around here, and the gambler types like ring 9-ball, and I won't get in the match unless there are 2 weaker players than me out of 5... the room owner is a very strong player and would love nothing more than to entice me into any gambling scenario and take the cheese home... there could be no fair chance there in any 9-ball game, where he only wants to play even or 6-5 at most.

One pocket he is just learning, and has seen me take down a former Japan Open SA player, and lost to me himself... so he is rather shy on trying that game again with me. Who's the locksmith here, where I figure the only fair shake I can get is playing one-pocket, and I better not make one defensive mistake or they can and will run out on me.

As you say, my normal B player match is in my head, and he has thoughts too... and when I execute well, I can shut him down pretty good. Last two nights for him, tonight for me. It is pretty even and there are no hard feelings between us, the stakes are for fun.

 

[NineBallNut]

know one to blame but yourself

My opinion is this, when most players are up a good amount of money and the opponent wants to double. the first thing that goes into most's minds is that they can quickly put this guy out of his misery and send him packing. It's a greed reaction and everybody is succeptable to it. I don't think it's wrong to double, but the kicker is when the guy wins a set, you start to think that you've wasted your time or something cause he has to do half the work for the same money. It's a risk you take, plain and simple. If someone asks you to double, friend or not. think about it, and if you do it, then take your damn lumps and go on. Everybody seems to remember the time they broke even but fail to mention the many times they broke someone.

just my lame 2 cents...