Dr. Pool - Meskwaki Casino tournament bad review

Richardson

Richardson

Who me ?
Silver Member
This is without a doubt the worst tournament I've ever played in. Its also the first time I've ever seen multiple people just quit the tournament because they were frustrated and didn't want to deal with it anymore, one player was even in the winners bracket.

They don't use a computer system for handicapping, it's whatever they *think* you should be. If you shoot a good match they move you up. If you get ran over you stay the same.

To explain their *system* you get 10 points per ball and 45 for the 8 ball. So if you win its 115 points. Seems good in theory, but you could actually lose to someone who NEVER wins a game against you. :/ Lowest handicap i saw was 420, highest was 970. I saw multiple 600-700 rated people breaking and running out.

If you're a masters player and admit it they make you so high you have no shot to win the tournament. Because as they said, "There are more lower level players here losing money to the casino, we want them to continue to come and play"

Oh yeah, the tournament director was drunk. That is always helpful.

Anyhow, just a review I thought I'd share. Maybe inform someone in case they don't want to make the same mistake i did trying to be honest. I told them i was a low level masters player(true) they made me a 870. I lost to a 440(who never beats anyone, their words) and a 630 who had three table runs against me. :(

PS: if you play masters level pool, go there, tell them you're a B player and get a 550 rating and win the tournament. That's what about 6 of the top 16 did.
 
judged events

Richardson said:
This is without a doubt the worst tournament I've ever played in. Its also the first time I've ever seen multiple people just quit the tournament because they were frustrated and didn't want to deal with it anymore, one player was even in the winners bracket.

They don't use a computer system for handicapping, it's whatever they *think* you should be. If you shoot a good match they move you up. If you get ran over you stay the same.

To explain their *system* you get 10 points per ball and 45 for the 8 ball. So if you win its 115 points. Seems good in theory, but you could actually lose to someone who NEVER wins a game against you. :/ Lowest handicap i saw was 420, highest was 970. I saw multiple 600-700 rated people breaking and running out.

If you're a masters player and admit it they make you so high you have no shot to win the tournament. Because as they said, "There are more lower level players here losing money to the casino, we want them to continue to come and play"

Oh yeah, the tournament director was drunk. That is always helpful.

Anyhow, just a review I thought I'd share. Maybe inform someone in case they don't want to make the same mistake i did trying to be honest. I told them i was a low level masters player(true) they made me a 870. I lost to a 440(who never beats anyone, their words) and a 630 who had three table runs against me. :(

PS: if you play masters level pool, go there, tell them you're a B player and get a 550 rating and win the tournament. That's what about 6 of the top 16 did.
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I learned long ago not to compete in judged events. Sounds like that is basically what that tournament was. Should have told them that you taught Wally Mosconi everything he knows and you play with a Barrybuska.

Hu
 
I asked him(tourney promoter?) how they do their ratings and got no reply. Figured that was a good reason not to go. Well that and my wife thought that 3 pool tourneys out if town in a year was plenty .....

Thanks for the heads up J.:ok:
 
Yeah, it was absolutley horrible. I'm all for a fair game but I didn't stand a chance. Honesty will get you no where in that format. Never saw such a shit show. Beat a guy 6-3 and lose the set. Sick
 
bankout86 said:
Yeah, it was absolutley horrible. I'm all for a fair game but I didn't stand a chance. Honesty will get you no where in that format. Never saw such a shit show. Beat a guy 6-3 and lose the set. Sick
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iam sure he get players for his tournament but dont trash the guy.i have played in dr.pool tournament and i they are good tournament. hi master or low master.you shoud of played better. because anybody can be beat on any given day.
 
Guess in retrospect, I'm glad I stayed home.

Where did the tables come from? Valley's? Open or pay?

Last time I was in Meskwaki was for Ron White performance. Seemed like a nice place.

I hope they keep sponsoring tournaments -- maybe find a different promoter. Handicapping sounds goofy and very 'APA' ish. Bleh.
 
deadstroke7 said:
Guess in retrospect, I'm glad I stayed home.

Where did the tables come from? Valley's? Open or pay?

Last time I was in Meskwaki was for Ron White performance. Seemed like a nice place.

I hope they keep sponsoring tournaments -- maybe find a different promoter. Handicapping sounds goofy and very 'APA' ish. Bleh.
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Valleys. $1 a game

Casino is nice, Hotel was great. Very nice rooms.
 
Meskwaki tourniment

Nice place to play, lighting wasn't good but it was the same for everyone. Handicap system pretty much sucks. Just tell the dude you cant shoot and he gives you a 400, be somewhat honest and you get 570-640 and lose. Still ok, got to shoot against some other people. At home I never loose a single game!
 
Those tournaments are the most popular ones here in Wisconsin. Hence the reason pool is such a joke here. The rankings are a joke. Lots of people go though because they have a chance to win. What they don't realize is they spend so much between travel, rooms, food, drinks, the casino and the $1 a game, they have to win to break even!

What's also great is that Dean (Dr. Pool) is also on the committee for our state BCA tournament so he has a say in those rankings as well. This year he tried saying that a B player was an A because he stroked the ball like an A. What the hell is that? Dean saw the guy play one match ever and it was against him and since Dean lost he thought the guy played way better than he does.

Oh, Dean also likes to ban people for no real reason. He banned one player because he plays too good, but another that plays just as good is allowed to play because he's Dean's best friend. Figure that one out!
 
suprnva said:
Those tournaments are the most popular ones here in Wisconsin. Hence the reason pool is such a joke here. The rankings are a joke. Lots of people go though because they have a chance to win. What they don't realize is they spend so much between travel, rooms, food, drinks, the casino and the $1 a game, they have to win to break even!

What's also great is that Dean (Dr. Pool) is also on the committee for our state BCA tournament so he has a say in those rankings as well. This year he tried saying that a B player was an A because he stroked the ball like an A. What the hell is that? Dean saw the guy play one match ever and it was against him and since Dean lost he thought the guy played way better than he does.

Oh, Dean also likes to ban people for no real reason. He banned one player because he plays too good, but another that plays just as good is allowed to play because he's Dean's best friend. Figure that one out!
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What they don't realize is they spend so much between travel, rooms, food, drinks, the casino


It is the reason the casino holds the tournament , to make money , or get people in the door hoping they enjoy the casino experience. People don't open the their facilities out of benevolence. Local bars that add money because they plan on making more back and they need people to tip bartenders etc. I know i'm not telling you anything new , just trying to remind you :).

If i could make weekend tournaments , i wouldn't play handicap ones , i'm playing for the entertainment value to me , and how well i could do against better players.
 
criticism

I hate to see posts like this.

It is easy to criticize - and for all I know, you might be right.

But - if you are not willing to be part of the solution, you might be part of the problem. Maybe you should contact him and offer to help.

I do know Dean, he does a lot for pool.
I am sure he does not make everyone happy - but who does?

He is making events happen and evidently a lot of people like going to them.

As far as the expenses: too many people just think that pool is supposed to be a money making proposition. Show me ONE other sport that the goal is to make money??

People who think like this just hold the game back.
Please - everyone try to help make the game better - offer to help if you see a problem.

Mark Griffin
 
Mark Griffin said:
Show me ONE other sport that the goal is to make money??
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At what level are you inquiring? Certainly many professional and popular collegiate sports in this country have a primary goal to make money. College football is perhaps the best example as it is 'technically' an amateur activity and yet the last two summers have been witness to just how far they will sacrifice in other areas simply for the sake of gaining a few more bucks.

We've certainly seen professional sports (and I include the revenue collegiate sports in this qualifier from here on) do all sorts of things simply in the name of gaining money. Many of these run counter to other needs, such as determining a champion in the postseason or academic concerns at major collegiate institutions. Rules have been changed, player trades overruled, even corruption. When a sport like the NFL makes a decision money is generally a principle consideration. When referees favor Tom Brady and the rules committee decides what constitutes illegal play on the QB, a primary concern is how much money everyone involved in the game loses when he's not available to play.

So to say that no other sport has a primary goal of making money is pretty clearly inaccurate because there is so much money involved and so many decisions are made at the expense of other factors in order to generate that money.

That doesn't mean much for pool, however. While the Utah Jazz may be making decisions based on bringing home the bacon, players in local rec league 747 are not there for the big bucks. Partly because the sport is so accessible, pool has a very difficult time distinguishing itself in this way. So many of the discussions we have are about rec leagues or small tournaments being about bringing home the money and yet people play in their company softball league or bowling league or whatever simply for the sake of playing the game. Sure, winning is nice and everyone enjoys getting a trophy or small reward at the end of the session but it is very different than the way pool players will often treat such activities.

I very much agree that if pool is to survive and grow as a recreational sport that it needs to be more often treated as a recreational sport. Any sport survives not on the basis of having a professional establishment but on the strength of its amateur, unpaid, recreational players. That's where the interest in watching and learning the game comes from. That's where the player development starts. That's where, ultimately, the money comes from to fund the professional side.
 
I never really liked his tournaments, my boss has been to a few of his events, the guy walks around and looks preety funny in his converse and flannel shirts, I dont thinkm he ownes any other cloaths.............:D
 
Dr. Pool

Richardson -

It takes promoters and players to make things work.

I do nto know that much of Dean's involvement, but I know he has been active in pool for years.

He has done the casino tours for many years.
He has been an officer in WI BCA affairs for quite a while.
He sits on boards that rate the players
He has been involved in helping the WPBA over the years.
He has helped the National BCAPL office find locations for State events.
He has had input in several pool events - even those that are not 'his'.

I think a lot of what he does is thankless. And nobody wins when it comes to ranking players abilities. i have been there.

You seem to be involved in pool and I again suggest getting more involved in the running of events. You will see a whole new side of things BUT I bet you can be a helpful contributor to make pool better for the players.

Mark G


Richardson said:
Examples?


With all due respect, **we the players** are the ones who do A LOT for pool.
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Mark Griffin said:
nobody wins when it comes to ranking players abilities. i have been there.
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IMO, the problem is clearly with the handicapped format. In any other sport without handicaps, the stronger player or team usually wins -- as they should.

With handicapped events in pool, the deck is stacked against the stronger player who has everything to lose. If a weaker player wins, it doesn't necessarily mean they were the better player but that the stronger player was not able to overcome the handicap imposed upon him.

IMO, we should try to wean pool players off of the handicapped format. A good start would be imposing limits on how much of a handicap someone gets.
 
Mark,

I respect you and your opinions very much. I think you do more for pool than anyone else in this day and age. However, unless you are actually here in Wisconsin and see how Dean's tournaments have effected everything, I don't think you can form a valid opinion. Yes, lots of people love his tournaments. But that is because, as stated by the original poster, you don't have to win a single game to win a match. How is that good for pool?

Also, say Dean is running a tournament at a casino and the same weekend there is a tournament going on at a pool hall. Let's say some people, we'll go with a lower number like 20, decide to go to the casino tournament that would have normally gone to the tournament at the pool hall. How does that help pool? Wouldn't having more people at a pool hall support pool more than having them go to a casino?

His ratings have totally destroyed things here. Nobody wants to play tournaments unless they are handicapped. There is no reason for people to want to get better because they can just go to Dean's tournaments and keep a super low ranking and win all the time. But the players that have put in their time and effort and have gotten better have no chance. How is that good for pool?

And this is something I would really like your opinion on. As I stated in my previous post, Dean tried to rate someone higher than they are just because they beat him in one match in a tournament and because he thought they stroked the ball too good. Is that how players should be ranked? Is that fair in any way? If that is, maybe there should be a table setup at the entrance to the tournament area at the Riviera and everyone that is going to play should just hit a draw shot and Dean can place them in whatever tournament he feels because essentially that's what he tried to do in this case.

We could go back and forth about this all day and night. I'm just giving my opinions based on seeing the state of pool in Wisconsin first hand and hearing from many, many other people that feel the way I do.

-Patrick
 
I was there. I have 3 words for the tournament "What a Joke"

Room was good, food was good, casino was good.

Thank you Mr Richardson for bringing this up, I was going to do the same thing. Thank god we have VNEA and espically ISPA.
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
With handicapped events in pool, the deck is stacked against the stronger player who has everything to lose.
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Actually, most handicap systems have a slight to moderate bias in favor of those with the stronger handicap.

IMO, the problem is clearly with the handicapped format.
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I understand your sentiment. It does create a bit of conflict. Ranking systems are difficult to construct and implement, and even with adequate data (which is rare) there always exists some element that will be unhappy with the result. Again, we can look at the history of college football as a guide. :)

On the other hand, pool is not alone in this regard. Most recreational sports leagues do away with a handicap system in favor of a tiered skill structure. The desired result is still the same -- to create balanced competition. One of the issues, however, is that it takes a certain number of entries to make such a structure work, whereas a handicap system can create a larger field by attempting to balance everyone against everyone rather than placing members in small, presumed equivalent, subsets. Even then, there is usually some debate as to the perceived ranking.

The other problem with pure open formats is that the number of entries becomes exclusive to only those that feel they have a chance to win. Most people do not like to compete if they do not feel they have a chance at being victorious. Therefore, open events, particularly on a small scale, have a reasonable probability of never getting off the ground due to potential low entries.

But that is because, as stated by the original poster, you don't have to win a single game to win a match. How is that good for pool?
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In a basketball game, I only need to win 1 out of 4 quarters to win the game. Baseballl, 1 of 9 innings to win the game. Auto racing, one of potentially hundreds of laps and win the race. 9 ball can be won by pocketing 1 out of the 9 balls. Some variant rules of 8 ball can have a winner declared without ever pocketing a ball!

It is all about how one defines the system. Some systems are based on an aggregate. Some only count the accumulation of these subsystems and disregard the aggregate entirely. What is fair often tends to be defined as such by tradition.
 
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