DRAW STROKE: Dropping your elbow or not.

[JoeyA]

This one is by Max Eberle and is quite interesting. If you want to consider different ways to draw your cue ball, click on this link.

Maybe one of the whiney ass, anonymous *****es will go begging to have this thread moved to.

JoeyA

 

[seven_7days]

Maybe one of the whiney ass, anonymous *****es will go begging to have this thread moved to.

JoeyA

You spelled SJDinPHX wrong.

 

[JoeyA]

You spelled SJDinPHX wrong.

Lol, others have just said he is "dick". But I don't think he means any harm.

JoeyA

 

[Neil]

Well, let's take a close look at what he said, and what he did.

1. He said that it takes less effort to drop your elbow. Think about that for a minute....which takes more muscle and energy, to not drop your elbow, or to use more muscles and drop the elbow?

2. Now, let's look at something else he said. He stated truthfully, that if you drop your elbow before you make contact, you will have a tendency to hit the cb too high.

3. So, let's now look at what he actually did. He barely dropped his elbow before contact, which is normal for a pendulum stroke...no drop, or a slight drop.


So now, we have to ask ourselves a few questions....
1. How long is the tip on the cb? (.001 sec., or about 1/8 inch)
2. Since the cb is gone after 1/8 inch, what point does an extended followthrough have?
3. Since he isn't hitting the cb with a dropped elbow, just dropping it for the follow through, and the cb is already long gone, what is the point of dropping it supposed to add? It can't be less effort, it can't be smoother if you need to add more muscle to do it, so what exactly is the point of dropping it?

 

[JoeyA]

Well, let's take a close look at what he said, and what he did.

1. He said that it takes less effort to drop your elbow. Think about that for a minute....which takes more muscle and energy, to not drop your elbow, or to use more muscles and drop the elbow?

2. Now, let's look at something else he said. He stated truthfully, that if you drop your elbow before you make contact, you will have a tendency to hit the cb too high.

3. So, let's now look at what he actually did. He barely dropped his elbow before contact, which is normal for a pendulum stroke...no drop, or a slight drop.


So now, we have to ask ourselves a few questions....
1. How long is the tip on the cb? (.001 sec., or about 1/8 inch)
2. Since the cb is gone after 1/8 inch, what point does an extended followthrough have?
3. Since he isn't hitting the cb with a dropped elbow, just dropping it for the follow through, and the cb is already long gone, what is the point of dropping it supposed to add? It can't be less effort, it can't be smoother if you need to add more muscle to do it, so what exactly is the point of dropping it?

Well, he certainly can't be doing both as you mention above.

I'm sure the dropped elbow is to give more power to the stroke. Lee Brett hits most shots with a dropping elbow and he hits them rather hard and accurately.

JoeyA

 

[MahnaMahna]

Trolls 2
Joey 0

 

[nobcitypool]

The point he made is you can't allow your hand to drop when dropping the elbow. Without dropping the elbow, no thought has to be given to the hand, it rotates naturally causing the tip to drop with the resulting draw shot. Dropping the elbow requires a conscious effort (which I'm sure would/should become unconscious over time with repetition) and has more moving parts. I guess I missed any real factual reason for dropping the elbow. With that said, obviously, many incredible players drop their elbow. As stated by Mark Wilson in his recent book, many things can work, it just takes more hours on the table to make them work.

 

[RBC]

When I want to draw the cue ball, I hit it low.

Doesn't really seem so complicated to me.


Royce

 

[BeiberLvr]

The point he made is you can't allow your hand to drop when dropping the elbow. Without dropping the elbow, no thought has to be given to the hand, it rotates naturally causing the tip to drop with the resulting draw shot. Dropping the elbow requires a conscious effort (which I'm sure would/should become unconscious over time with repetition) and has more moving parts. I guess I missed any real factual reason for dropping the elbow. With that said, obviously, many incredible players drop their elbow. As stated by Mark Wilson in his recent book, many things can work, it just takes more hours on the table to make them work.

Well said. I am a firm believer that dropping the elbow is not necessary for practically every shot we face.

With that being said I know I have a tendency to drop my elbow on some shots, but overall I'd say my elbow is fixed on 80% of all shots. I stopped thinking about it a long time ago, and started focusing more on just making the ball and getting the CB to where it needs to be. That's just me though.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"No Pain No Gain" - if it feels right, it's possibly wrong

This one is by Max Eberle and is quite interesting. If you want to consider different ways to draw your cue ball, click on this link.

Maybe one of the whiney ass, anonymous *****es will go begging to have this thread moved to.

JoeyA

Mika advises dropping the elbow and although it's not something I focus on I do allow the elbow to drop (not on all shots though) - my main objective is to accurately extend the tip through the cue ball. The body's role is very important, but more in the set up than the execution (as far as the conscious thought is concerned).

The main thing is to make the cue go in the best "plane" as possible, and since the human body is not designed to play pool we have to accommodate the cue's path by understanding how to consistently position the body.

If we were put on this planet to play pool it might make sense to "do what's comfortable, or natural," but that's not the case. "No Pain No Gain" is an appropriately relevant process in any sport or game.......some people can't even breath naturally without getting on all fours (this the technique for learning to breath properly). 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[BeiberLvr]

I also want to add that more than anything, I think grip plays a huge part in getting maximum action on not just draw strokes, but all strokes. I use a light/cradle grip on all my strokes, and when I can keep it consistent, is when I play my best.

Here's a little experiment you can do to see what a light/cradle grip feels like

Hold the butt of your cue (without the shaft attached) straight up and down in your grip hand. Hold it tight enough so that it doesn't slide down your hand, but loose enough so that you can easily pull it up with your other hand without any resistance.

 

[Neil]

Well, he certainly can't be doing both as you mention above.

I'm sure the dropped elbow is to give more power to the stroke. Lee Brett hits most shots with a dropping elbow and he hits them rather hard and accurately.

JoeyA

Pause and start and you can see that his elbow barely dropped at contact. Can one get more power with adding the shoulder into an elbow drop? Sure can. But that kind of power is rarely needed outside the break shot. And, it usually comes with a loss of accuracy.

 

[Cornerman]

It can't be less effort, it can't be smoother if you need to add more muscle to do it, so what exactly is the point of dropping it?

I'm sorry Neil, but as an athlete, this is and has been one of the most misleading statements in pool on the internet for 15+ years. The coordination of more muscles is the definition of advancement in athletics. Or, to say it better, coordinating the right number of muscles to make the most efficient use of the motions. There isn't a single physical activity that differentiates excellence or even decent versus also-rans that violates this. Pool has never been different regardless of all the feel good sayings. It seems like only those who don't know a thing about athletics nor think about pool as a physical endeavor say things like "less muscles are better" or some such thing in pool.

Even the dart professionals move their arms and elbows all over the place! Why? Because it would hurt if they kept trying to keep their elbow still.


The idea of the dropped elbow is at its simplest a method to not retard your motion. It takes more effort to not drop your elbow on that full out stroke. I completely agree that keeping the elbow from dropping leads to good repeatable stroke on most average shots. But what differentiates excellence versus average is the above average shots and the ability to make the average shot even easier, as coordinated excellence affords. That's why pros are pros.

I'm sure everyone here is an athlete now, so everyone can give me their feel good story. But I'm an athlete and have been a coach. The study of motion in pool is no different.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"To each their own, different strokes for different folks"

I also want to add that more than anything, I think grip plays a huge part in getting maximum action on not just draw strokes, but all strokes. I use a light/cradle grip on all my strokes, and when I can keep it consistent, is when I play my best.

Here's a little experiment you can do to see what a light/cradle grip feels like

Hold the butt of your cue (without the shaft attached) straight up and down in your grip hand. Hold it tight enough so that it doesn't slide down your hand, but loose enough so that you can easily pull it up with your other hand without any resistance.

Wow, it's amazing that you can play with a grip like that?
I want the cue to be part of my hand, so it CAN'T be easily pulled out.....if it can be easily pulled out it can be easily pushed off line under pressure.....I guess it's like holding a fork, everyone uses a different amount of pressure.....although {it seems like} you would want to hold the fork firm enough that you couldn't pull it our of your hand most of the time....especially when eating a steak, but maybe not mashed potatoes.

"To each their own, different strokes for different folks"

 

[Neil]

I'm sorry Neil, but as an athlete, this is and has been one of the most misleading statements in pool on the internet for 15+ years. The coordination of more muscles is the definition of advancement in athletics. Or, to say it better, coordinating the right number of muscles to make the most efficient use of the motions. There isn't a single physical activity that differentiates excellence or even decent versus also-rans that violates this. Pool has never been different regardless of all the feel good sayings. It seems like only those who don't know a thing about athletics or think about pool as a physical endeavor say things like "less muscles are better" or some such thing in pool.

Even the dart professionals move their arms and elbows all over the place! Why? Because it would hurt if they kept trying to keep their elbow still.


The idea of the dropped elbow is at its simplest a method to not retard your motion. It takes more effort to not drop your elbow on that full out stroke. I completely agree that keeping the elbow from dropping leads to good repeatable stroke on most average shots. But what differentiates excellence versus average is the above average shots and the ability to make the average shot even easier, as coordinated excellence affords. That's why pros are pros.

I'm sure everyone here is an athlete now, so everyone can give me their feel good story. But I'm an athlete and have been a coach. The study of motion in pool is no different.

Well, pool isn't "athletics". It's moving a stick forward about 12"-14" in a straight line. Since you want to compare pros, make sure you grip it nice and tight like CJ does too.

Joey asked a question, I gave my answer. Don't really feel like arguing it out. See no point in it at all.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Well, pool isn't "athletics". It's moving a stick forward about 12"-14" in a straight line. Since you want to compare pros, make sure you grip it nice and tight like CJ does too.

Joey asked a question, I gave my answer. Don't really feel like arguing it out. See no point in it at all.

Wow. Pool isn't athletics? You got me!

I guess long jumping is just going from point a to point b in a slight arc. So simple. Actually an identical moment to a pool stroke. Point a to point b in a slight arc.

Wow. Just wow. At a loss for words.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's athletic.....especially on a professional size table

Wow. Pool isn't athletics? You got me!

I guess long jumping is just going from point a to point b in a slight arc. So simple. Actually an identical moment to a pool stroke. Point a to point b in a slight arc.

Wow. Just wow. At a loss for words.

When played at a high level it's athletic.....especially on a professional size table. :thumbup:

 

[Neil]

Wow. Pool isn't athletics? You got me!

I guess long jumping is just going from point a to point b in a slight arc. So simple. Actually an identical moment to a pool stroke. Point a to point b in a slight arc.

Wow. Just wow. At a loss for words.

I guess that's fair, because I'm at a loss with your comparison.

 

[Neil]

When played at a high level it's athletic.....especially on a professional size table. :thumbup:

Yeah, right. That's why fat guys and old guys and guys ready to have a heart attack like Basovich did can do it.

 

[nobcitypool]

Help me understand. High level athletes move more muscles? I guess when I watch the Olympic sprinters and compare them to low level sprinters, I can see how they're making lots of unnecessary movements. (sarcasm). Those hurdlers are the same way, right? Watch most of the NBA Players shoot and compare it to high schoolers. About 1/3 to 1/2 the motion in the shot with the NBA players. And the worst hitter of all time, Ted Williams, lots of extra motions in that swing. And if you want to see tons of motion, those herky jerky snooker pros are the guys to watch.

I'm not trying to pick an argument. To drop or not to drop the elbow has been worn out here 1000 times in a 1000 different ways. I think it does feel natural to let the elbow drop. But that doesn't mean it is the simplest mechanical stroke or that it would lead to the straightest stroke either. Going to a professional tournament and watching all the incredible players, it's obvious there is a substantial amount of ways to get it done and it certainly isn't clear, from looking at the pros there is any best way ... aside from stroking it straight and hitting the cue ball where you plan to with a great deal of precision and accuracy.