Draw stroke: tip or shaft?

[justadub]

If your tip is ground down, yeah, you want to replace it. Also there is an great draw drill I use to use to help me practice draw shots. basically, take 6 balls, and place one in front of each pocket. Start with ball in hand, and make all 6 balls, but never let the cue ball hit the rail. If it hits, you lose and have to start over. When you get good enough that you can run it most of the time, switch it up and shoot the balls in a different order such as numerical or around the table, opposite corner to corner, etc. Enjoy.

Thanks for the advice. I like that drill, I shall try it out tonite if I get to the hall. I stopped by for just a couple of minutes last night and tried a few shots with a house cue, and did better than I had previously, so I'm encouraged. More practice!

I'm gonna see about getting a new tip soon, too. (Maybe a whole new cue! I deserve a treat. )

Again, thank you and everyone else posting on this thread. It really does help!

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm not sure that we completely understand tips. What makes me say this is what happens in the Austrian high-speed video made by Andreas Efler and Robert Leitner. See about 35 seconds into the video at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1708353497587857701#

I asked Efler if that was some kind of special tip, and he said no, it was just his usual Moori.

Usually we don't think of sideways movement of the tip itself. I think that movement can be important in the analysis, but I'm not sure what the practical effect is.

(The chalk shrapnel is pretty impressive, too.)

 

[dr_dave]

I'm not sure that we completely understand tips. What makes me say this is what happens in the Austrian high-speed video made by Andreas Efler and Robert Leitner. See about 35 seconds into the video at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1708353497587857701#

Here's an isolated video of the tip contact clip:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-76a.htm​

I was also shocked the first time I saw this. My camera isn't good enough to capture images of such great quality (speed, resolution, and color!!!).

I asked Efler if that was some kind of special tip, and he said no, it was just his usual Moori.

Usually we don't think of sideways movement of the tip itself. I think that movement can be important in the analysis, but I'm not sure what the practical effect is.

(The chalk shrapnel is pretty impressive, too.)

I think they purposely put a ridiculous amount of chalk on that tip just to make an extra-big cloud. Don't you think? Although, I have observed post-impact "chalk clouds" with a normal amount of chalk also (even with my stupid camera).

Regards,
Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

When I was a kid, everybody ran in Keds (sneakers). Then Converse sneakers came out (Cons). The claim was people could run much faster in Cons than Keds. The fastest runners were thoroughly convinced of this. Most of us tried and failed to convince our parents to let us retire our Keds in favor of a spendy new pair of Cons. People laced up a pair of Cons and felt... well... fast.

The thing is, unless the other tips slip on the ball, like a partial miscue, there is no "grabbing" better. The "grab" is just the static friction.

If it's any consolation, I don't think Keds slipped on the pavement either.

Maybe during our next big tournament we'll run a winner-take-all draw contest. Start by adding some money, and then charge $5 or $10 per four tries, with the stipulation that the four tries are with the four cues we provide:

stiff shaft plus Kamui black SS

whippy shaft plus Kamui black SS

stiff + hard tip

whippy plus hard tip

...then we'll have half of them run around the building in a pair of Keds ....

"If it's any consolation.." lol. A little condescending, eh?

In any case, of course you can run whatever tests, experiments, and contests will make you happy. I've already got all the data I need

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I asked the questions I did because when somebody claims a tip "grabs better," to me this either means it doesn't miscue as often and/or the CB can be hit farther off-center without a miscue (to get more spin).

It sounds like you mean it "feels better" (i.e., you like the "hit" and "feedback"). Maybe you prefer the hardness compared to the previous tips you've used. A harder tip will typically be slightly more efficient and maybe require slightly less effort.

"Hit" and "feedback" are very subjective. What feels good to one top player might feel terrible to another top player. Also, a hard tip on a stiff shaft might "grab the ball" just as well as soft tip on a whippy shaft, even though the "feedback" is much different.

Regards,
Dave

I understand why you asked your questions. I'm just sharing my impressions.

I didn't change cues, or shafts, or ferrules, or anything. I put new tips on a cue I've been using for almost 15 years, dressed the tip like I've been doing for 40 years, went to the same table with the same balls and cloth and chalk I've played on/with for the last several years and, viola! noted a dramatic change. These particular tips grab the cue ball better/more than any other tip I've used in the past. I can spin the ball more gently now than before.

That's it. YMMV. Have a nice day.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm not sure that we completely understand tips. What makes me say this is what happens in the Austrian high-speed video made by Andreas Efler and Robert Leitner. See about 35 seconds into the video at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1708353497587857701#

I asked Efler if that was some kind of special tip, and he said no, it was just his usual Moori.

Usually we don't think of sideways movement of the tip itself. I think that movement can be important in the analysis, but I'm not sure what the practical effect is.

(The chalk shrapnel is pretty impressive, too.)

FWIW, the black Kamuis are of a different composition than other tips I've used. When you shape them, you end up creating a very fine powder, as opposed to the more fibrous stuff you create when shaping any other tip. Perhaps they compress differently on impact, or have more (or less) lateral movement than more conventional tips. Maybe they just grab more I dunno. I just like them enough that for the first time in years I bought a large batch of them.

Lou Figueroa

 

[BRKNRUN]

I'm curious about whether the tip or the shaft has a greater effect in the ability to draw the CB. Assuming one's stroke is fine and the tip holds chalk, does the tip really play a huge role in drawing the CB... i.e. do some tips draw better than others?

I'm asking because right now I'm using a certain layered tip and while drawing the CB is possible, it's not as easy as I'd like. Is there a difference between layered vs. non-layered tips in terms of putting action on the CB?

First look at the shaft diameter and taper to see if it fits me comfort wise and also the amount of whip/deflection and corresponding squirt of the CB.......I then adjust the tip to get the type of hit firmness that I prefer....

I would think if you found this you would have found the shaft that also gives you the most control over not only draw but total CB control.

 

[mikepage]

"If it's any consolation.." lol. A little condescending, eh?

Yes. Sorry.

 

[ShootingArts]

The two sides of the coin

I'm not sure that we completely understand tips. What makes me say this is what happens in the Austrian high-speed video made by Andreas Efler and Robert Leitner. See about 35 seconds into the video at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1708353497587857701#

I asked Efler if that was some kind of special tip, and he said no, it was just his usual Moori.

Usually we don't think of sideways movement of the tip itself. I think that movement can be important in the analysis, but I'm not sure what the practical effect is.

(The chalk shrapnel is pretty impressive, too.)

In my mind there are two basic theories concerning tips. Unfortunately both can work so then we have what seems to be the extremely difficult to prove, which works best.

If we place grit(chalk) between two hard surfaces it tends to embed in both surfaces and give excellent bite. When the two surfaces are moving at different angles or in different arcs as is true of a tip and the cue ball surface the contact is momentary but with excellent transfer of force during that contact. This is the logic behind hard tips grabbing best.

If we place grit between a hard surface and one that is softer but can flex and maintain contact longer we don't get quite the bite of the grit between the two hard surfaces however we maintain the bite for a longer time. Also, we get a larger contact surface with the softer tip reducing the difference in bite between the hard and soft surface to some unknown degree. This is the logic behind a soft tip being best.

Without hard data to prove one better in actual application I think either theory bears equal weight. It seems that in actual practice hard tips and soft ones run out of the ability to hold near the edge of the cue ball at about the same time. I think a well chalked soft tip is a little better but that is based on my feeling having used soft tips a lot and hard tips a comparative little, not solid data. I think playing so long listening to the sound of a soft tip striking the cue ball I am more comfortable with the soft tip.

That is a great video and I find just how much the cushion actually compresses in the last few seconds of the video equally as interesting as the tip shot. It makes me wish I could do overhead high speed video shots of some of the more common banks I shoot. It might make it easier to adjust angles sometimes instead of working by "feel".

The only answer I have when someone in the pool hall asks me if a hard or soft tip is best is "absolutely!"(it confuses them too)

Hu