Drill to stop elbow drop

[ENGLISH!]

Ok, I understand now. Just keep in mind that the timing of the elbow drop is more relevant to the stroke than anything else, and will change the outcome significantly. You can't just say "elbow drop" and try to draw a reasonable comparative conclusion with a non-elbow drop stroke. You will need to factor in the many variables that go along with an elbow drop ---- such as:

When? Before impact? After impact? How far before? How far after? --- Those are just a few.

Hi Fran,

What you say is why I am more than a bit sceptical that a robotic test could accurately duplicate what we has human beings can do & do do.

Also, we have the ability to focus on the intention which is moving the cue straight & can simply allow the elbow to drop to achieve the intention & not just do it when we are programmed to make it drop.

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS It's always good to have your input as you certainly add quality content to any discussion regarding a cue stroke, etc. I wish you would post more often.

 

[naji]

Mr. Naji,

The speed the tip hits the ball & where & at what angle determines the outcome. How that is achieved depends on each individual.

I have said that on some days I can draw a full table with just my hand, fingers, & wrist with almost no or very little arm movement. Then on another day I have to send the cue well through the cue ball.

Mr. Massey executed two different ways on the same day. Perhaps because he sensed something in his back stroke.

Jack Nicklaus's famous one iron shot on the 17th hole at Pebble Beach was a bad swing that he 'saved' on the way down. He sensed that the club was out of position for his intention & changed his down swing.

There are different conditions from day to day, including ME. I don't think anyone is exactly the same from day to day. Being able to execute differently allows one to play more consistently from day to day. By consistently, I mean the outcome not the method.

Again, I hope you can see my points.

Best,
Rick

So to be specific, we are talking amount of follow through effect, i say short or long follow through has no effect on CB direction, or amount of spin increase or decrease on CB, it only can effects the speed of CB depending on how much the hand accelerates. The biggest advantage to long follow through is it allows the head to stay down.

 

[naji]

Here's the power-draw video I filmed with Mike, with super-slow-motion footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59amcNEN0Tg
It is very clear that he doesn't drop his elbow until the CB is long gone. I also agree with you that with the first shot shown in the other video, he probably doesn't drop his elbow at all, even during the follow through.

BTW, you are wrong when you implied that I think "follow through is not essential." Regardless of which type of stroke a person uses (pendulum, vs. piston vs "J" vs. extended follow through with significant elbow drop), follow through is a good indicator of quality of the stroke into the ball. For more info, see:
follow through
stroke type and quality

Regards,
Dave

Sorry Dr. Dave, i meant to say long/short follow through is not essential in imparting more english on CB.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

I think the discussion of the practical aspect of elbow drop or not has been covered, If I recall well the great Robert Byrne writes in "Advanced Technique in Pool and Billiards", referring to Bob Jewett as well: "there's no use in trying to stop follow through". I understand he means in increased speed shots where elbow drop might happen..
Petros

Edit: found it, his exact phrase is: "there is no particular reason why you shouldn't follow through", talking about follow through having nothing to do with CB action etc.

 

[FranCrimi]

Hi Fran,

What you say is why I am more than a bit sceptical that a robotic test could accurately duplicate what we has human beings can do & do do.

Also, we have the ability to focus on the intention which is moving the cue straight & can simply allow the elbow to drop to achieve the intention & not just do it when we are programmed to make it drop.

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS It's always good to have your input as you certainly add quality content to any discussion regarding a cue stroke, etc. I wish you would post more often.

I agree, Rick, about the testing. I think they are two different strokes, each with it's own set of variables, which I think would make them difficult to compare.

Thanks for your kind words, but I tend to jump in and out, depending on my schedule, and don't see a lot of threads in this forum and I don't always feel the desire to participate.

 

[ENGLISH!]

So to be specific, we are talking amount of follow through effect, i say short or long follow through has no effect on CB direction, or amount of spin increase or decrease on CB, it only can effects the speed of CB depending on how much the hand accelerates. The biggest advantage to long follow through is it allows the head to stay down.

Mr. Naji,

To be clear nothing (cue related) effects the ball after it leaves the tip. The follow through can be an indicator of what happened before the ball leaves the tip.

If as you say a long follow through effects the speed it would then also be able to effect the spin as more speed on the off center hit would mean more spin.

If the cue started from the same point & accelerated at the same pace & reached the same top speed at the same time but then stopped at different distances beyond contact with the ball, then something had to cause that quicker deceleration to a quicker & shorter stopping point.

If what caused that different deceleration happened before contact or during contact then the result would be different.

If what caused that different deceleration happened after the ball has left the tip then the results would be the same.

Again, I hope you can my points. I know that there is a bit of a language difference & I apologize if I am coming across in any offensive way. That is never my intention.

Regards & Bests Wishes,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

I agree, Rick, about the testing. I think they are two different strokes, each with it's own set of variables, which I think would make them difficult to compare.

Thanks for your kind words, but I tend to jump in and out, depending on my schedule, and don't see a lot of threads in this forum and I don't always feel the desire to participate.

Fran,

You are more than welcome, but the words are not kind. They are just truthful.

Believe me I certainly understand your being hesitant to participate.

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS Have a great weekend.

 

[dr_dave]

Sorry Dr. Dave, i meant to say long/short follow through is not essential in imparting more english on CB.

With a draw shot, the only things that matter are the cue speed, cue angle, and tip position at the point of contact with the CB. With a given cue angle and tip position, the only way to get more draw is to generate more speed into the CB. And with more acceleration and speed into the CB, there will often be more follow through. But it is not the follow through that is causing the good draw ... the follow through is merely a side effect of a good stroke into the ball.

Most good players do not drop their elbow at all during the stroke into the ball. If they did, it would be very difficult to be consistent and accurate with the tip contact point on the CB. Some top players don't drop their elbow at all even during the follow through, especially with shots like precision draw where the tip contact point is critical. Many top players drop their elbow some during the follow through because it is natural to let the momentum of the cue pull the arm forward some after the hit. Some top players drop their elbow significantly with an exaggerated follow through with a pure piston-like motion of the cue. Any of these variations can be mastered and produce consistent and accurate results with enough practice, but the only things the CB really "cares about" is the cue speed, cue angle, and tip position at the point of contact, regardless of what you do or don't do before or after this point.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

With a draw shot, the only things that matter are the cue speed, cue angle, and tip position at the point of contact with the CB. With a given cue angle and tip position, the only way to get more draw is to generate more speed into the CB. And with more acceleration and speed into the CB, there will often be more follow through. But it is not the follow through that is causing the good draw ... the follow through is merely a side effect of a good stroke into the ball.

Most good players do not drop their elbow at all during the stroke into the ball. If they did, it would be very difficult to be consistent and accurate with the tip contact point on the CB. Some top players don't drop their elbow at all even during the follow through, especially with shots like precision or power draw where the tip contact point is critical. Many top players drop their elbow some during the follow through because it is natural to let the momentum of the cue pull the arm forward some after the hit. Some top players drop their elbow significantly with an exaggerated follow through with a pure piston-like motion of the cue. Any of these variations can be mastered and produce consistent and accurate results with enough practice, but the only things the CB really "cares about" is the cue speed, cue angle, and tip position at the point of contact, regardless of what you do or don't do before or after this point.

Regards,
Dave

Hi Dave,

Well stated.

However I guess it may be a regional thing as we do live in different parts of the country or I guess it could be a relative difference of opinion as to the term 'good'.

But 'most' 'good' players that I see do have an elbow drop, especially when executing a power draw shot.

I guess that is a nit pic. Sorry.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[dr_dave]

Hi Dave,

Well stated.

However I guess it may be a regional thing as we do live in different parts of the country or I guess it could be a relative difference of opinion as to the term 'good'.

But 'most' 'good' players that I see do have an elbow drop, especially when executing a power draw shot.

I guess that is a nit pic. Sorry.

Best Wishes,
Rick

Actually, I was editing my post while you were replying. I removed the "power draw" from the no-elbow-drop sentence. I agree that many top players drop their elbow during the follow through with a power draw shot.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Actually, I was editing my post while you were replying. I removed the "power draw" from the no-elbow-drop sentence. I agree that any top players drop their elbow during the follow through with a power draw shot.

Regards,
Dave

Dave, that's 'good'.

But I was referring to more than just power draw shots.

Have a great weekend.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Neil]

Mr. Naji,

To be clear nothing (cue related) effects the ball after it leaves the tip. The follow through can be an indicator of what happened before the ball leaves the tip.

If as you say a long follow through effects the speed it would then also be able to effect the spin as more speed on the off center hit would mean more spin.

If the cue started from the same point & accelerated at the same pace & reached the same top speed at the same time but then stopped at different distances beyond contact with the ball, then something had to cause that quicker deceleration to a quicker & shorter stopping point.

If what caused that different deceleration happened before contact or during contact then the result would be different.

If what caused that different deceleration happened after the ball has left the tip then the results would be the same.

Again, I hope you can my points. I know that there is a bit of a language difference & I apologize if I am coming across in any offensive way. That is never my intention.

Regards & Bests Wishes,
Rick

By gollly Rick! You are finally understanding it! Good post.

 

[ENGLISH!]

By gollly Rick! You are finally understanding it! Good post.

I have always understood what was in my post.

You nor no one here has taught me anything in that regard.

So it is NOT finally as you state with an explanation point. You are wrong again & make another statement of distortion.

The point has always been about what happens before contact that can effect the contact & during contact that can effect the outcome.

Again you attempt to belittle me even though I was an A student for all of my six(6) physics classes.

You are you... & I will just leave it at that.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Mr. Naji,

To be clear nothing (cue related) effects the ball after it leaves the tip. The follow through can be an indicator of what happened before the ball leaves the tip.

If as you say a long follow through effects the speed it would then also be able to effect the spin as more speed on the off center hit would mean more spin.

If the cue started from the same point & accelerated at the same pace & reached the same top speed at the same time but then stopped at different distances beyond contact with the ball, then something had to cause that quicker deceleration to a quicker & shorter stopping point.

If what caused that different deceleration happened before contact or during contact then the result would be different.

If what caused that different deceleration happened after the ball has left the tip then the results would be the same.

Again, I hope you can my points. I know that there is a bit of a language difference & I apologize if I am coming across in any offensive way. That is never my intention.

Regards & Bests Wishes,
Rick

The length of follow through in pendulum stroke is limited anatomically since the brain is programmed for a specific stroke movement without the use of the upper arm.
If the brain is programmed to drop elbow after that then the follow through will continue up to a different anatomical limit.

So the extension of follow through happens after, the question is if this different movement has a minor tip-CB contact time alteration before with a significant result.

From practical point of view I still believe there is no question on the use of elbow drop when executed, Dave explained really well that most possibly the technique enables players to achieve different speeds easier, not having to do with anything else.
Carom players refer to long follow through as "pushing through the CB" and short follow through as "slapping the CB", bringing out different results, possibly due to reasons explained above but without doubt of those reasons coming from the technique used.

The question is about the possibility that there is something else too, and two robot performed shots with different follow through length would bring a definite answer.

Hope one day this experiment does take place, it may not prove anything different but it would be interesting.

Thanks again to all,
Petros

 

[BeiberLvr]

I have always understood what was in my post.

You nor no one here has taught me anything in that regard.

So it is NOT finally as you state with an explanation point. You are wrong again & make another statement of distortion.

The point has always been about what happens before contact that can effect the contact & during contact that can effect the outcome.

Again you attempt to belittle me even though I was an A student for all of my six(6) physics classes.

You are you... & I will just leave it at that.

The only thing that happens if dropping before contact is you make it difficult to be accurate. Can it be done? Sure, with lots and lots of practice and trial and error until you get the timing right.

As far as during contact. There is no during contact since the tip is only on the CB for something like 2/10 of a second at the most. If you honestly believe that in that span of time you can do anything to influence the CB, well I guess that's what you're free to believe.

Just know that you're wrong.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The length of follow through in pendulum stroke is limited anatomically since the brain is programmed for a specific stroke movement without the use of the upper arm.
If the brain is programmed to drop elbow after that then the follow through will continue up to a different anatomical limit.

So the extension of follow through happens after, the question is if this different movement has a minor tip-CB contact time alteration before with a significant result.

From practical point of view I still believe there is no question on the use of elbow drop when executed, Dave explained really well that most possibly the technique enables players to achieve different speeds easier, not having to do with anything else.
Carom players refer to long follow through as "pushing through the CB" and short follow through as "slapping the CB", bringing out different results, possibly due to reasons explained above but without doubt of those reasons coming from the technique used.

The question is about the possibility that there is something else too, and two robot performed shots with different follow through length would bring a definite answer.

Hope one day this experiment does take place, it may not prove anything different but it would be interesting.

Thanks again to all,
Petros

Petros,

I agree with almost all that you say. But the elbow drop could happen before, during or after contact. Those options would need to be different parameters set for the test.

My thinking & 'concerns' are what effect the tip has if it moves on a different path during contact & exactly when the deceleration begins with the two(2) totally different hand paths.

There is a similar occurrence in a golf swing like the 'through the ball' vs 'slapping' the ball to which you refer.

If ALL is equal at contact between the golf club & the ball but during contact in one, the hand & the grip continue & keep the shaft oriented as it is at contact for several inches past that point vs the hand slowing & allowing the club head to pass the hands through contact there is a rather distinct & dramatic difference in ball flight & distance.

I know that that is not a direct & exact analogy but it is similar in more than just one principle. Both the speed & direction of the hands & the path/orientation of the hands & the club head connected to them during contact.

Regards & Best Wishes Sir,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

Robots can't play pool.....never have and never will be able to beat a human, unless

The length of follow through in pendulum stroke is limited anatomically since the brain is programmed for a specific stroke movement without the use of the upper arm.
If the brain is programmed to drop elbow after that then the follow through will continue up to a different anatomical limit.

So the extension of follow through happens after, the question is if this different movement has a minor tip-CB contact time alteration before with a significant result.

From practical point of view I still believe there is no question on the use of elbow drop when executed, Dave explained really well that most possibly the technique enables players to achieve different speeds easier, not having to do with anything else.
Carom players refer to long follow through as "pushing through the CB" and short follow through as "slapping the CB", bringing out different results, possibly due to reasons explained above but without doubt of those reasons coming from the technique used.

The question is about the possibility that there is something else too, and two robot performed shots with different follow through length would bring a definite answer.

Hope one day this experiment does take place, it may not prove anything different but it would be interesting.

Thanks again to all,
Petros

"Begin with the End in Mind"....to alter the cue ball's reaction after contact it's ideal to think in terms of the follow through.....this will automatically have an effect on shot speed/cue speed and put your attention where it needs to be...to unconsciously control the cue ball and make it do what you "think".

Robots can't play pool.....never have and never will be able to beat a human player unless they bet their life on a certain shot.

 

[dr_dave]

"Begin with the End in Mind"....to alter the cue ball's reaction after contact it's ideal to think in terms of the follow through.....this will automatically have an effect on shot speed/cue speed and put your attention where it needs to be...to unconsciously control the cue ball and make it do what you "think".

Excellent advice! For example, even though I know logically that follow through can have no direct physical effect on a shot, I still like to think "accelerate through the ball" when I shoot draw shots. And it works. What one thinks certainly makes a difference and affects the stroke into the ball. The Game is the Teacher ... and the Mind is Powerful.

Robots can't play pool

Agreed. Also, a robot can be programmed to do things with a stroke that a human can't possibly do, so robot tests don't always result in meaningful or useful results.

.....never have and never will be able to beat a human player unless they bet their life on a certain shot.

"Never" is a strong word. Eventually, with enough research, development, and funding, I think it will be possible to design, build, and program a robotic playing system to rival top human players not only with shot execution, but also with vision, planning, judgment, and strategy. But the robotics and artificial intelligence researchers still have a long way to go. They would also need some reason (like a lot of money) to focus all of their energies on pool.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Very interesting, a "Deep Blue" pool player similar to Chess...
A lot of great input here by people that really know the game.
Since I mentioned the great Raymond Ceulemans I will come back later with quotes from his book on the subject, remember in this case we are not talking about just a guy with great talent who won more than 100 world championships (!!!) based on feeling but a champion who studied carom games systematically in great depth, games where every little detail about stroke and CB reaction matters...

 

[ENGLISH!]

The only thing that happens if dropping before contact is you make it difficult to be accurate. Can it be done? Sure, with lots and lots of practice and trial and error until you get the timing right.

As far as during contact. There is no during contact since the tip is only on the CB for something like 2/10 of a second at the most. If you honestly believe that in that span of time you can do anything to influence the CB, well I guess that's what you're free to believe.

Just know that you're wrong.

You have no understanding of how the dropping of one's elbow happens. You are only regurgitating what you have been told.

You are just like some others. You make distorted statements to give false impressions.

Are you & Neil attempting to derail & ruin this thread too?

The contact time is approximately 1/1,000 to 2/1,000 of a second, which is far less than the 2/10 of a second that you state.

I have never sated that anyone can make a conscious decision & then implement that decision from the beginning to the end of that 1 to 2/1,000 of a second.

BUT what happens during that 1 to 2/1,000 of a second IS what dictates what happens to the ball. It is the only time that any influence can be put on the ball.

The dropping of one's elbow does not have to be consciously coordinated & timed. There does not have to be any focus on it at all. There is merely no focus on keeping it still either & therefore it is simply allowed to drop if & when it does to get or keep the cue moving straight through contact with the ball.

IMO, the focus should be on moving the cue straight into & through contact with the ball & not on whether or not one is going to make one's elbow stay still or make it drop.

What other statement(s) of distortion will you make next?