Drill to stop elbow drop

[Wolven]

I have a feeling Mantis's cue is going into the CB diagonally down in a straight line.
While the motion described by me starts as pendulum and goes into the CB more parallel to the table.
But I could be wrong.

Best regards

You are correct. I confirmed that by watching some slow motion video of myself last night. Besides it is the only way the CB can jump when I am hitting well above the miscue line. Now I just have to fix it. I think it is coming from abnormal grip pressure and excessive wrist snap. The softball stroke sound interesting but I am not quite sure what I am picturing is what u mean.

I will have to get a gold star.
Imagine a small child on the receiving end trying to catch the ball instead of the hitter.
Like you already think your muscles are tense on the backswing so loosen up.
DON'T use wrist snap back or forth, not now later you can add what you want.
Don't snatch on the backswing, just swing, relax, stop on the backswing as well and start throwing the ball to the kid.

........that's underhanded.......
and
........ bridge to the right to the point where your shoulder can pass............

 

[dr_dave]

Man, you really got me on the shot in the side and the other shot in the corner.

I thought .......the doc needs get his side pocket fixed. The shot in the corner around the other ball had me really going. I thought.....the docs table really rolls off bad.

Thanks for the laugh. I need to get one of those 8 balls. Nice video.

John.

Thanks. I'm glad the video "had you going." The curving shot was tougher than it looked. It took me a while to figure out the best way to position the weight and hit the ball to make it curve just right, but it was a fun video to make.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The wrist twist is actually a legitimate technique used for banking... While I will not argue that you cannot do the exact same thing by simply aiming and applying english at setup it. It is a center ball aiming system with different amounts of wrist twist in either direction to cause the banking angle to lengthen or shorten up...

If I see a bank is dead on to bank a diamond short I can simply twist it in to the pocket without having to aim at anything other than a center ball hit.... I am sure there are all sorts of geometric holes in the system and it is mainly useful cross table but I was taught by someone who had been taught by Eddie Taylor... If there was no merit it could not be taught because it would not be consistent in application...

I have taught several people to use it on hold up banks because it gets the thought of the double kiss from even entering into your head.... It is also pretty useful in getting beginners to start pocketing some banks.. I showed a league players wife a few banks with it and she started making them and doesn't play much pool... He stopped me the next time I was in the pool room and had me show him... He had just ignored what I was showing her until he saw her results....

I might have been a little too disrespectful in the video, especially since some people teach these techniques. As you point out, one advantage to cue twisting and/or stroke swooping is they allow you to line up the shot for a center-ball hit. The English and squirt correction are applied during the stroke instead of before, as with BHE. Some people might prefer and be more successful with the twist or swoop techniques; although, I personally think most people would be more accurate and consistent with a straight stroke. Having said this, I can see how some people might like a center-ball alignment with no pre-stroke adjustment. The off-line cue alignment created by a pre-stroke BHE pivot might not look right to some people.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Wolven]

I was just getting ready to say the same thing. Pitching the softball underhanded is a pendulum stroke however the cue tip does not touch the cloth it stays parallel to the table at the same distance above the table where you hit the cue ball. About a 3/4 inch or so using draw.

John

Amazing how agreeable we are on this.

With all the talk about dropping elbow or not, I’m surprised nobody bothered to write down what pendulum stroke feels like. It could help……..

 

[One Pocket John]

I might have been a little too disrespectful in the video, especially since some people teach these techniques. As you point out, one advantage to cue twisting and/or stroke swooping is they allow you to line up the shot for a center-ball hit. The English and squirt correction are applied during the stroke instead of before, as with BHE. Some people might prefer and be more successful with the twist or swoop techniques; although, I personally think most people would be more accurate and consistent with a straight stroke. Having said this, I can see how some people might like a center-ball alignment with no pre-stroke adjustment. The off-line cue alignment created by a pre-stroke BHE pivot might not look right to some people.

Regards,
Dave

Here is a one pocket shot for you to mess around with.

Set the OB about and inch or so off of #6 diamond and the QB at #5 (cue ball starting point) on the other side of the table.
Your goal is to bank the OB into the QB pocket #5. This is a hard shot but thinking and stroking that you are going to turn the OB into the pocket will get you there. The stroke to use is a swooping type stroke with a lot of side spin. 9 or 3 oclock depending on which side of the table your shooting from.

I dont twist but I do swoop when needed.

Its a cool stroke.

Oh, nice house by the way.

John

 

[The Renfro]

I might have been a little too disrespectful in the video, especially since some people teach these techniques. As you point out, one advantage to cue twisting and/or stroke swooping is they allow you to line up the shot for a center-ball hit. The English and squirt correction are applied during the stroke instead of before, as with BHE. Some people might prefer and be more successful with the twist or swoop techniques; although, I personally think most people would be more accurate and consistent with a straight stroke. Having said this, I can see how some people might like a center-ball alignment with no pre-stroke adjustment. The off-line cue alignment created by a pre-stroke BHE pivot might not look right to some people.

Regards,
Dave

Actually found the video funny and did not take it as disrespectful at all... Just wanted to make sure that I pointed out about the only valid
use for a twist that more than I would agree with... I use a twist for 2 other purposes but I sure won't try and discuss those 2 stroke on here.... 99% would think I am nuts and the other 1% would tell me other ways to accomplish the same thing that are more conventional LOL... Some tricks and shortcuts are pretty useless for anyone else but yourself.....

 

[Cue Chief]

Simple Exercises to Reduce Elbow Drop

All our lives we perform activities that involve both the lower arm and upper arm - working together. These activities include shoveling snow or pushing a broom. It’s no wonder that many players transfer this motion to the cue when shooting pool. If you are one of the many players out there that have been told that elbow drop is affecting your stroke, I encourage you to read on. The solution to the problem may not have to cost you for expensive equipment – just a couple of simple exercises may be all that is needed.

During my advanced level certification, I asked my instructor (Scott Lee) what he does to help students to keep their elbow up when shooting. He asked me to get into a shooting position and to stroke the cue. While doing this, he placed the butt of his cue just behind my elbow and exerted a downward pressure. He told me to shoot the cue and focus on keeping the butt of his cue resting on my elbow up. Wow – the lights went on. The secret was clear – training the shoulder muscles to keep the upper arm up was the answer. Unfortunately, having a second person assisting you with this during a game or a match would be frowned on. Even doing this at the pool hall during practice may look out of place. I tried to design a weight that could be positioned on the arm above the elbow to duplicate this resistance – no luck – I’m not an architect. I then did a little research to study the anatomy of the shoulder and joint movements.

Keeping it simple – there are two movements involved – Flexion and Extension. Flexion is the act of flexing a muscle by bending a joint. Extension is the opposite motion; that of straightening the joint. Different muscles flex and extend a joint. These muscles are often opposite each other on the body or on a limb. For example, the bicep muscle flexes the elbow bringing the forearm closer to the upper arm. The Triceps extend the elbow, moving the forearm away from the upper arm.

The motion or movement causing elbow drop is the same as raising the arm from your side to straight in front of you. The muscle responsible for this motion is the Anterior Deltoid – the opposing motion is moving the arm from the side to straight behind the back and the muscle involved is the Posterior Deltoid. When in the shooting position we are using the posterior deltoid to keep the upper arm and elbow up - flexing the anterior deltoid results in dropping the upper arm and elbow.

Many slings on the market prevent elbow drop by resisting the anterior deltoid. This is similar to an isometric exercise that actually strengthens the muscle responsible for elbow drop. When the sling is removed – down goes the elbow.

I recommend exercises that strengthen the posterior deltoid. Take a three five pound weight with a diameter similar to the butt of your pool cue (small dumbell). Holding your bridge hand against the rail, get into a shooting position. Raise the upper arm as high as you can and hold this position. This simple exercise does two things – it strengthens the muscle involved with holding the cue up and it trains the brain to use this muscle when in a shooting position. You may want to stroke the weight like you would stroke the cue - look back at your elbow ensuring that it stays up.

If you belong to a gym, you can do shoulder extensions using a machine to strengthen the posterior deltoid; however, I don't think it is as effective as stroking a dumbell.

If you find this article helpful, leave me a message.

 

[ENGLISH!]

"You can't handle the truth!"

'Deep down inside, you like that elbow drop on that wall, you want that elbow drop on that wall, you need that elbow drop on that wall.'

I just mean to point out that everyone is not using a fixed elbow type stroke.

My poll is indicating that on AZB it is about 2 to 1 against, with other than a pendulum stroke combined with variations of a pendulum stroke like a J stroke etc, against a 'complete pendulum stroke'.

I'm sure your exercises are good for the purpose intended. I just will not be one doing them.

Best Wishes,
Rick

PS This is an 'old' thread. You must have dug deep to find it.

 

[nine_ball6970]

"You can't handle the truth!"

'Deep down inside, you like that elbow drop on that wall, you want that elbow drop on that wall, you need that elbow drop on that wall.'

I just mean to point out that everyone is not using a fixed elbow type stroke.

My poll is indicating that on AZB it is about 2 to 1 against, with other than a pendulum stroke combined with variations of a pendulum stroke like a J stroke etc, against a 'complete pendulum stroke'.

I'm sure your exercises are good for the purpose intended. I just will not be one doing them.

Best Wishes,
Rick

PS This is an 'old' thread. You must have dug deep to find it.

Or he just used the search function using the terms drill and elbow.....

 

[Petros Andrikop]

This thread comes back from time to time and it is still interesting.
I think the last time was a couple of years ago, and I argued then about the concept of "length of follow through (longer with elbow drop) having no impact on CB action".

I will present my arguments again.
There are many scientific experiments that bring out important conclusions regarding the stroke, mainly performed by robots. However, the game remains one of perception (combined with knowledge) about stroke elements, until a human being comes in the future and claims-proves that "I just stroke the CB with 11.564mph".

Elbow drop is usualy absent from Snooker due to different stance, different approach to the CB and different table height.

In Carom and Pool length of follow through is supposed to have a different impact on CB, a CB struck with with short follow through tends to maintain more side spin than a longer follow through which tends to add linear speed.

That surely stands from practical purposes, so if it works for players it does have some value.
I first saw it in Raymond Ceuleman's famous book of systematic 3C play, he teaches different length of follow through in shots that don't have to do with power.

The scientific explanation behind this is the tip-CB contact which is longer in long follow through.
The duration of this contact is short so the argument against elbow drop influence is based on that, meaning that minor alterations of tip-CB contact time do not influence stroke results.

But scientific specific data is missing on that, that's why I proposed the one experiment that would clear the subject: the use of a test robot.

Two different side spin strokes should be performed by such a robot (I think Meucci and Predator have this equipment) with all shot characteristics common, including speed, one with a short follow through and one with a long follow through.

Observation of CB path in those two cases would bring a definite answer.
Up to my knowledge no such experiment has been performed up to date.

Thanks everyone for your time.
Petros

 

[ENGLISH!]

Petros,

You make some good points.

It would seem that you have an open mind.

But there is more than one question that comes into play.

A robot may or may not be able to be set up to perform a test as you suggest & might answer the question you suggest.

But we are not robots & therefore there are other questions regarding the subject that I do think can be answered by a robot.

Best Wishes.
Rick

 

[Neil]

This thread comes back from time to time and it is still interesting.
I think the last time was a couple of years ago, and I argued then about the concept of "length of follow through (longer with elbow drop) having no impact on CB action".

I will present my arguments again.
There are many scientific experiments that bring out important conclusions regarding the stroke, mainly performed by robots. However, the game remains one of perception (combined with knowledge) about stroke elements, until a human being comes in the future and claims-proves that "I just stroke the CB with 11.564mph".

Elbow drop is usualy absent from Snooker due to different stance, different approach to the CB and different table height.

In Carom and Pool length of follow through is supposed to have a different impact on CB, a CB struck with with short follow through tends to maintain more side spin than a longer follow through which tends to add linear speed.

That surely stands from practical purposes, so if it works for players it does have some value.
I first saw it in Raymond Ceuleman's famous book of systematic 3C play, he teaches different length of follow through in shots that don't have to do with power.

The scientific explanation behind this is the tip-CB contact which is longer in long follow through.
The duration of this contact is short so the argument against elbow drop influence is based on that, meaning that minor alterations of tip-CB contact time do not influence stroke results.

But scientific specific data is missing on that, that's why I proposed the one experiment that would clear the subject: the use of a test robot.

Two different side spin strokes should be performed by such a robot (I think Meucci and Predator have this equipment) with all shot characteristics common, including speed, one with a short follow through and one with a long follow through.

Observation of CB path in those two cases would bring a definite answer.
Up to my knowledge no such experiment has been performed up to date.

Thanks everyone for your time.
Petros

I guess no matter how many tests and high-speed videos are done, some will still believe what they want to. There is much wrong in your perceptions. Why some still think their perceptions can go against what science has already shown is beyond me. You might want to check out Bob Jewett's and Dr. Dave's sites.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Dear Neil,
1. I have checked Bob Jewett's, Dr. Dave's yours and other very useful articles etc.
2. There is no specific experiment that ever took place about this one.
3. The vast knowledge of the semi-God Raymond Ceulemans is beyond any kind of doubt, by anyone on this planet.
4. Your opinion is stated, please refer something that contradicts points 2 and 3 besides that.
Thanks,
Petros

 

[Mikjary]

The cueing experiments done 15 years ago were a tremendous boon to our knowledge of the game. I thank Mr. Bob Jewett and others for their research. I also want to thank them for unselfishly sharing that information with us.

That being said, I think it's time to upgrade! Let's not sit on our hands and stop asking questions. I'd like to see many more types of strokes and cueing attempts demonstrated to answer some of the current nagging debates.

The science is dated and limited. We need more research and input for interpretation. I'd be willing to chip in for another go. I'm sure many other members could get a few bucks together to have another round with the high speed camera.

There's always something more to learn about the game.

Best,
Mike

 

[Neil]

Dear Neil,
1. I have checked Bob Jewett's, Dr. Dave's yours and other very useful articles etc.
2. There is no specific experiment that ever took place about this one.
3. The vast knowledge of the semi-God Raymond Ceulemans is beyond any kind of doubt, by anyone on this planet.
4. Your opinion is stated, please refer something that contradicts points 2 and 3 besides that.
Thanks,
Petros

If you think that length of follow-through increases duration time on the cb, You are very mistaken, no matter what Ceulemans THINKS he is doing. Tests have shown you to be wrong on this. I'll leave it at that.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The cueing experiments done 15 years ago were a tremendous boon to our knowledge of the game. I thank Mr. Bob Jewett and others for their research. I also want to thank them for unselfishly sharing that information with us.

That being said, I think it's time to upgrade! Let's not sit on our hands and stop asking questions. I'd like to see many more types of strokes and cueing attempts demonstrated to answer some of the current nagging debates.

The science is dated and limited. We need more research and input for interpretation. I'd be willing to chip in for another go. I'm sure many other members could get a few bucks together to have another round with the high speed camera.

There's always something more to learn about the game.

Best,
Mike

Tap Tap Tap

 

[Jodacus]

Answer

Mantiss,

I sent you pm that actually answers you first question.

Jo

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Dear Neil,
1. Your comment about Ceulemans is beyond the human boundaries of dealing with...
2. Which experiment are you talking about? Can you post a link to an experiment like the one I descibed?...
3. As before, we understand your opinion. Now it's time to answer specifically, if you can't then yes, please do leave it at that....

 

[Neil]

Dear Neil,
1. Your comment about Ceulemans is beyond the human boundaries of dealing with...
2. Which experiment are you talking about? Can you post a link to an experiment like the one I descibed?...
3. As before, we understand your opinion. Now it's time to answer specifically, if you can't then yes, please do leave it at that....

You said you were familiar with Bob and Daves work, so you should know exactly where it is. I also said I was done with this, and I am. I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you want to believe what you do, go ahead. But, if you want to state it as fact, then please show where you are getting it from other than "Cuelemans said so in a book".

And, to Mike, since when is science "outdated" because it's 15 yrs old? Go ahead and redo the tests, it will only cost about $100K to do so. It was $62K then, if I remember right.

 

[td873]

I haven't read the whole thread, so perhaps this is way off base, but simple physics should dictate that the contact time between the ball and the tip is very short and unaffected by stroke or follow through. The various experiments confirm this hypothetical understanding. Further proof of Newton's laws is not needed, IMO.

Put differently, we know the cue speed and the cue ball speed. Taking the physical characteristics into consideration, it should not be possible to affect cue ball/tip contact time through stroke dynamics.

Many great minds have been wrong over the centuries [e.g., geocentric model comes to mind]. Cuelemans may be a great player, but I don't believe he has a physics degree.

My $0.02.

-td