No matter how hard you need to hit, your backward stroke must be very very very slow all the time, even with break shot; you seem to want to force your shot in to gain speed, and that is when muscles react, elbow drop, butt hand twist inward..etc; most likely that happens as a result of improper or shorter backward swing length compared to the desired shot speed expected; synchronizing backward swing length with forward swing for a given speed is essential for lightly griped cue butt; not as essential with tight grip (Allison Fisher style). Getting the two in sync all the time, is pro quality play and takes years of practice, and complete knowledge of all 4000 shots possibilities.
Drill to stop elbow drop
- Thread starter mantis99
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No matter how hard you need to hit, your backward stroke must be very very very slow all the time, even with break shot; you seem to want to force your shot in to gain speed, and that is when muscles react, elbow drop, butt hand twist inward..etc; most likely that happens as a result of improper or shorter backward swing length compared to the desired shot speed expected; synchronizing backward swing length with forward swing for a given speed is essential for lightly griped cue butt; not as essential with tight grip (Allison Fisher style). Getting the two in sync all the time, is pro quality play and takes years of practice, and complete knowledge of all 4000 shots possibilities.
You have seen what you wanted to see, not what i wanted you to see in my analysis of the shot. For GOD's sake why would you want a robot when you see in your own eyes that it only took less than 6" to draw CB two table lengths! it is all in where the tip contacts CB and power!!!
Ok maybe Mike pinned that CB hard to table, still very short follow through.
Neil help me out here!!
Mr. Naji,
That 1:36 stroke is very much sort of a pop stroke as the cue hits the ball & is pulled back rather quickly. Then later you see one where the follow through is continued. You can almost see the 'pause' or slow down to be more precise for a split second by the impact & then it continues through.
I'm in the New Orleans area where humidity is very much a factor. On some days I can draw the ball nearly a full table using almost nothing but my fingers hand & wrist with very little arm swing & on other days I need to power the cue through the ball with a good follow through.
It may not be the humidity alone that is effecting it. It may be my wrist action or lack of wrist action on that day.
Some try yo pigeon hole certain aspects of cue strokes & forget to factor in certain parameters when making definitive statements.
What if two identical twins where drawing the ball & one had a loose grip & had plenty of wrist action & the other had a tight grip & no wrist action. Do you think the results would be the same given the same length of stroke? My point is that ALL parameters must be considered. Otherwise certain statements can be misleading.
I hope you see my point.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
A robot in this case can perform desired functions more effectively, thus resulting in more trustworthy results than any human action or observation.
A specific experiment like I described (two shots with different follow through extend) has never taken place and this is verified by all relative sources.
There is no reason to avoid having an ultimate proof provided by scientific experiments, it would be interesting if this would be done, at least to me.
Others may refuse to even talk about it, that's their right.
Thanks for your input.
Petros
A specific experiment like I described (two shots with different follow through extend) has never taken place and this is verified by all relative sources.
There is no reason to avoid having an ultimate proof provided by scientific experiments, it would be interesting if this would be done, at least to me.
Others may refuse to even talk about it, that's their right.
Thanks for your input.
Petros
Mr. Naji,
My back stroke is NEVER very, very, very slow. To me that would be very unnatural. My back stroke is not rushed. It is smooth similar to a 'practice' stroke that does not actually hit the ball.
But to say that one's back stroke 'must be very very very slow all the time', to me appears to be a misleading statement.
Everyone has their own internal clock & tempo for doing things. Lanny Watkins & Ricky Fowler are quick tempo golfers while Bob Murphy & others are more slow tempo golfers. To change either of them in the other direction would be disastrous.
To me, too slow of a back stroke can often result in a over aggressive forward stroke & the two combined can result in a lack of feel & touch.
Again, I hope you can see my point.
Best Wishes,
Rick
Petros,
I too would be interested in several test on several subjects. But I am not sure that they could even be done totally effectively as robots are obviously not human beings.
One factor that would need to be taken into consideration is the rate of deceleration for different lengths of follow through & exactly where does that deceleration begin. If the back stroke length is equal & the acceleration to & the speed at contact is equal but then the length to a stop of the cue is different. How would that happen? And that's the point. If the cue deceleration & stopping points are different then what causes it & where does the difference begin? Before, at, during, or after contact.
We're not robots & I could not care less what a robotic test says on the day I'm playing. I only care about what I need to do on that day to get the results that I want. If I need to push the cue deeper into the follow through more today than yesterday to get the same result I will. If not I won't.
I love the scene in the movie, A League of Their Own, at the end, when the umpire calls a strike & the batter throws the bat down & starts to argue his call & he says, 'yesterday that might have been a ball & tomorrow that might be a ball...but today it's a strike.
Anyway, I hope you see my point. I don't even know if the parameters can be accurately set up for a robotic test to emulate what we, human beings, actually do.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. Same speed, different stop point of follow through. I believe it could be done with a test machine like the ones used in deflection studies, some minor modification needed.
I'm trying to contact people that could do it, if I have any success I'll get back with results.
Thanks,
Petros
I'm trying to contact people that could do it, if I have any success I'll get back with results.
Thanks,
Petros
Yes, there are beginner-intermediate players who do that to try to control the speed of the cue ball without changing their stroke speed. It's called poking. It can be mildly successful, which is why they do it, but It lends to terrible stroke timing and other major stroke problems.
Timing is everything. Once you've gotten into the habit of poking, it's a really tough one to break.
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"Poking" or "punching" is usually associated with an "incomplete" follow through, I'm talking about the use of exact same speed in two shots, one with and one without drob elbow. A test machine could do it most reliably, providing the ultimate proof about influence or not of follow through extend during stroke.
Thanks,
Petros
Thanks,
Petros
Rick,
OK, lets take Mike's draw shot example, he did it two ways, short pop stroke and follow through stroke both outcomes are the same; it proves that long follow through is only good to provide speed required, and if tip contact point is accurate you got max spin possible.
As far as weather, cloth, humidity, soft tip, hard tip all factors , that over powering (not over follow through) will cancel all.
Great answer Randy, all he needs is to find proper hand position
i mean proper home position
Mr. Naji,
Is 'my' HOME hand position the same as his HOME hand position, or yours?
Actually I don't have or want a home hand position as IMO different shots require differences for optimum results.
Best,
Rick
Actually, no.
It's not where the "home" is that determines the outcome of the shot, but the speed in which you get there.
Mr. Naji,
The speed the tip hits the ball & where & at what angle determines the outcome. How that is achieved depends on each individual.
I have said that on some days I can draw a full table with just my hand, fingers, & wrist with almost no or very little arm movement. Then on another day I have to send the cue well through the cue ball.
Mr. Massey executed two different ways on the same day. Perhaps because he sensed something in his back stroke.
Jack Nicklaus's famous one iron shot on the 17th hole at Pebble Beach was a bad swing that he 'saved' on the way down. He sensed that the club was out of position for his intention & changed his down swing.
There are different conditions from day to day, including ME. I don't think anyone is exactly the same from day to day. Being able to execute differently allows one to play more consistently from day to day. By consistently, I mean the outcome not the method.
Again, I hope you can see my points.
Best,
Rick
I understand the method & that is one way to do it. Personally I don't feel or think that it is a natural way or the best way.
One does not take a slower full swing with a wedge for a 40 yard pitch shot.
That is JMO.
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Ok, I think I understand now what you're saying. Just keep in mind that the timing of the elbow drop is more relevant to the stroke than anything else, and will change the outcome significantly. You can't just say "elbow drop" and try to draw a reasonable comparative conclusion with a non-elbow drop stroke. You will need to factor in the many variables that go along with an elbow drop ---- such as:
When? Before impact? After impact? How far before? How far after? How much of a drop? --- Those are just a few.
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A good stroke is supposed to feature "release"-follow through starting at the moment of tip-CB.
The kind of follow through follows just after that.
I'm talking about elbow drop at the point where the pendulum follow through ends, thus extending the follow through under the exact same overall stroke speed.
Thanks again,
Petros
PS To clear something: the way the follow through extension happens is secondary, I would just like to have a machine performing two shots under the same speed with different length of follow through action.
The kind of follow through follows just after that.
I'm talking about elbow drop at the point where the pendulum follow through ends, thus extending the follow through under the exact same overall stroke speed.
Thanks again,
Petros
PS To clear something: the way the follow through extension happens is secondary, I would just like to have a machine performing two shots under the same speed with different length of follow through action.
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Here's the power-draw video I filmed with Mike, with super-slow-motion footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59amcNEN0Tg
It is very clear that he doesn't drop his elbow until the CB is long gone. I also agree with you that with the first shot shown in the other video, he probably doesn't drop his elbow at all, even during the follow through.
BTW, you are wrong when you implied that I think "follow through is not essential." Regardless of which type of stroke a person uses (pendulum, vs. piston vs "J" vs. extended follow through with significant elbow drop), follow through is a good indicator of the quality of the stroke into the ball. For more info, see:
follow through
stroke type and quality
Regards,
Dave
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