Dropping Elbow

Patso44

Patso44

Underdog
Silver Member
Just want a straight answer.........no games..........Dropping the elbow slightly, is it a problem?...if so what is the reason.

I am working with SPF and having a tough time accelerating my stroke past a 4 speed without dropping elbow. Been talking to instructors....They are telling me my grip should be lighter and relaxed bicep to handle a faster acceleration stroke higher than a 4 speed. (For those who don't know.....4 Speed is a clock speed of after stroking, the cue ball would roll a table and 3/4s to a hault.

Please let me know. I am struggling on this because I am tired of changing my technique. I am too much of a perfectionist...... time to hit the ground running with one technique and become a player.....

thanks for replies
 
You will find many answers to this question. Here's my answer. If the elbow moves up OR down...even a little...it means that the shoulder joint is initiating the stroke, making it 'muscled' (as opposed to letting the CB and timing create the stroke speed). That is difficult to quantify...versus a pendulum swing, which is a range of motion that does not involve the shoulder, doesn't change, and can easily be quantified.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Patso44 said:
Forgot to add, My elbow only drops after I make contact with the cueball....video to prove it.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hL9IA6_U6o&context=C30f181bADOEgsToPDskIgS3NCSUe_M4WOtpnpPjMS


The first three shots are not too accurate but the last three is when I am very comfortable....let me know of your thoughts.......
Click to expand...

Patso44:

The reason why your elbow is dropping, is because when you're cueing up to the cue ball, your grip hand is already forward of the perpendicular.

Take a look at your video, and the relation of your grip hand to the cue, and the cue to the cue ball. You'll see that your "Set" position is incorrect. At the point when your forearm is perpendicular to the cue, your cue's tip is not close enough to the cue ball. At the point where your cue's tip is at the cue ball, your grip hand is already forward of the perpendicular. *Of course* your elbow has nowhere to go but to drop, as you're delivering through the cue ball -- there's "not enough cue left" for it "not" to drop, so your elbow drops to compensate.

Proposed solution: grip farther back on the cue. Or, in those cases where you're already gripping the cue near the buttcap, lean more forward. (That is, keeping your grip hand fixed, bend your bridge hand's arm at the elbow slightly so that your body moves in closer to your bridge hand, resulting in the grip hand and forearm being more perpendicular to the cue. You might have to use a mirror on the side of the table, so that you can see your side profile.)

Thoughts?
-Sean
 
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Patso44 said:
I am working with SPF and having a tough time accelerating my stroke past a 4 speed without dropping elbow. Been talking to instructors...
Click to expand...

It shouldn't be difficult to shoot a 4 speed or 5 speed.

Where did you learn SPF?

It appears that you are stopping your stroke just after contact, and although it's a bit difficult to see in the video, I'd suspect that your grip is too tight. The are other things you can improve with your pre-shoot routine that will help.
 
Patso44...It is impossible to tell, viewing at normal speed, whether your elbow begins moving before, at, or after contact. That assessment can only be determined with slow motion/stop action (sometimes frame-by-frame) video. The human eye can be easily fooled.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Patso44 said:
Forgot to add, My elbow only drops after I make contact with the cueball....video to prove it.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hL9IA6_U6o&context=C30f181bADOEgsToPDskIgS3NCSUe_M4WOtpnpPjMS


The first three shots are not too accurate but the last three is when I am very comfortable....let me know of your thoughts.......
Click to expand...
 
I'll throw my 2 cents in...

I think even the SPF guys will admit that dropping your elbow after contact is not an issue. By the same token, there's nothing to be gained by it for most normal shots. I have yet to see someone shoot a Massey or Nevel like shot with SPF form, when I see that I'll say all normal shots... :)

Since the cue is in contact for a very small amount of time (1/1000th of a second), it really doesn't matter much what you do after contact. However, exagerated or unnatural motions that occur right after contact can easily start to creep up in time and happen during or before contact, so it's best to keep it simple and let the cue come to a natural relaxed stop, either against your chest via SPF/pendulum or down to the table via a slight elbow drop.

Personally, I keep my elbow fairly still on simple shots but drop it at least slightly after contact on most other shots, much like a lot of pros you see. I'm sure my stroke is not quite as nice as some of theirs, but I try... I just find it unnatural to keep hitting myself in the chest on every follow through, especially for stroke shots - it hurts!!

I used to actually drop my elbow occasionally right at or after contact, enough where it could cause some inconsistencies, so I moved my grip hand back an inch or two to more of a 90 degree position and that delayed my natural elbow drop just enough where now it doesn't impact the shot. Felt weird at first but definitely helped.

So pure SPF or elbow drop after contact, I would work with both and do whatever feels natural and allows you to develop a simple, consistent, repeatable stroke.

Scott
 
Patso44 said:
Just want a straight answer.........no games..........Dropping the elbow slightly, is it a problem?...if so what is the reason.

I am working with SPF and having a tough time accelerating my stroke past a 4 speed without dropping elbow. Been talking to instructors....They are telling me my grip should be lighter and relaxed bicep to handle a faster acceleration stroke higher than a 4 speed. (For those who don't know.....4 Speed is a clock speed of after stroking, the cue ball would roll a table and 3/4s to a hault.

Please let me know. I am struggling on this because I am tired of changing my technique. I am too much of a perfectionist...... time to hit the ground running with one technique and become a player.....

thanks for replies
Click to expand...

That's because you're standing tall. In order to follow through with any speed at that height you would have to drop your elbow some, and even possibly manipulate your back hand, otherwise you'd be creating a huge angle of attack down towards the cue ball.

You will have more options available to you if you stand lower to your cue stick, preferably within 6 inches or so.

I am an advocate of ellbow dropping before or after impact, given the right set of circumstances, which I will not debate here. Also, I am not of the opinion as others are that a dropped elbow after impact is meaningless.
 
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Interesting Fran. I won't ask you to debate the elbow dropping pros or cons, but could you expound on the last part, where you said "I am not of the opinion as others are that a dropped elbow after impact is meaningless."? Other than it being an indicator of a possible less than ideal motion earlier in the stroke, or as mentioned it happening too close to contact and causing inconsistent tip placement or attack angles, is there something else you are referring to?

Thanks!
Scott
 
scottjen26 said:
Interesting Fran. I won't ask you to debate the elbow dropping pros or cons, but could you expound on the last part, where you said "I am not of the opinion as others are that a dropped elbow after impact is meaningless."? Other than it being an indicator of a possible less than ideal motion earlier in the stroke, or as mentioned it happening too close to contact and causing inconsistent tip placement or attack angles, is there something else you are referring to?

Thanks!
Scott
Click to expand...

Scott, I think that a dropped elbow after impact doesn't always have to indicate something negative. It can also be an indicator of something positive, given the right set of circumstances. This also goes for before impact.

The reason I won't debate it here is because I have found from debates in the past on this subject that most people haven't bothered to put in a significant enough amount of time to practice it in order to give it a chance.

If you're not used to shooting that way, it will take you right out of your comfort zone. It has taken me a long time to get comfortable with it to add it as a weapon in my arsenal to where I can call on it when I need it. I know many players who do it naturally. I wasn't one of them, but I'm glad I put in the time to learn.
 
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Neil said:
Besides what the others have already said, your whole body looks very stiff. Relax, let the cue do the work. You can't get the speed you want if your whole body is tight.
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You may be right but on the contrary I feel very relaxed. I just worked on it so long that it seems effortless. The only problem is my stroke which I am working on.
 
FWIW,
Pros on TV drop their elbows all the time. All you have to do is watch them. So it cant be a HUGE detriment to becoming a really good player.

DCP
 
Thanks Fran.

I'm the opposite, because of the way I learned and have played for 20 years not dropping the elbow feels very weird and restrictive, and actually I have a hard time keep it steady without physical help. That takes me right out of my comfort zone. Yet I still try to work on keeping it more steady at least on simple type shots, and especially on any shots where I'm jacked up, jumping, etc. But other than that I found the less I think about that whole area the better, especially if it's happening after contact... :)

Scott
 
For what its worth, nearly every top 10 pro consistently drops their elbow...

I have hundreds of videos of world class play that I can cite to depict this...

Pick a hall of famer... more drop their elbow than don't...

From what I can tell this appears to be most common on shots where they follow through a lot...

The only top 10 player that I can recall off the top of my head that has what many instructors IMHO would call perfect fundamentals most of the time, including not dropping the elbow... is Alison Fischer ...

IF you want to see perfection in fundamentals watch Alison Fischer ...
 
This topic is a red herring in the grand scheme of things. A pinned elbow is not a requirement to play well. For total rank beginners, sure... pin the elbow as it helps them become accurate with tip positioning faster.

Outside of that, for anyone with any speed, natural arm/shoulder movements in relation to stroking the cue is fine. People cite tip accuracy; however, the brain will do what's required to get the tip to where it needs to be naturally.

Take a pitcher as an example. Nobody throws a baseball from the elbow-down. If they did, people would say, "OH - they throw like a girl." They have rotation from the hips, around the spine, around the throwing shoulder, an extending elbow, a snapped wrist and the release from the fingers. It's amazing how they hit the glove 60' away, eh?

Heck, we're dragging a cue back a FEW INCHES and sending it forward a FEW INCHES. If someone can't hit a point on the CB after a few months of serious play--- it's time to pick a different game, people.

We beat this topic to death and the answer is--- it doesn't matter, regardless of the technique (which is why top pros are all over the place when it comes to dropping elbows).

Pinned elbow, super-drop, before contact, after contact---- none of it matters. The same way your stance doesn't matter as long as it's comfy, your elbow doesn't matter as long as your tip-strike is accurate.

End of story.
 
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