Earl's Elbow

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DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i was watching a tape from the 2002 U.S. Open earlier today. It was Strickland against Deuel, on the TV table. Incardona and Wyche were commentating.

anyway, since the elbow drop seems to be a big topic on this forum i just wanted to mention that i noticed Strickland dropping his elbow repeatedly on his shots. here's one of the greatest players of all time and he has, according to alot of knowledgeable people, a flaw in his stroke.

all this makes me believe what i have always been taught. that being if you can repeatedly make that cue tip stroke straight through the line and contact the CB right at the aim point, not a whole lot else matters.

Just thought i'd toss this out in case anyone wants to discuss.

DCP
 
Here's Earl doing a fancy "stroke shot." I picked this one because you can see very clearly on his setup that his "meaningful" stroke is purely pendulum--he comes right up to the CB in pure pendulum stroke.

He only drops his elbow after the CB has already been struck--so it's not a meaningful part of his actual stroke.
 
Interesting

Interesting, but I don't place much stock in how the pros play. I know some pros played sidearm, but I don't think many people would pick that stroke up.

Pool strokes and golf swings are highly individual and once one learns the muscle memory, a lot of the flaws can be accounted for. In other words, if you always played jacked up, you might be able to play well after a while, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea.

The point is could Earl have played better, more consistently without dropping the arm?

Also, does Earl evaluate his stroke to see if he likes what he sees? When someone sees a "slump", it may be stroke mechanics out of whack from what someone is used to.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
... since the elbow drop seems to be a big topic on this forum i just wanted to mention that i noticed Strickland dropping his elbow repeatedly on his shots. here's one of the greatest players of all time and he has, according to alot of knowledgeable people, a flaw in his stroke.
Click to expand...
There are both advantages and disadvantages to dropping the elbow. FYI, I have a good summary of the results of many past debates on this topic here:
Check it out.

Dropping one's elbow is certainly not a "stroke flaw," as long as the timing is consistent and the tip placement accuracy is good.

Regards,
Dave
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
Really? He Does??

i must be seeing things then. what i saw was a very noticeable elbow drop. but then again, this is an extreme example so it really doesnt amount to much.

DCP
Click to expand...

If you freeze the frame where the tip contacts the cue ball I think you will find his elbow drops on the follow through. There was a similar thread about Ray Martin dropping his elbow but video shows his elbow doesn't drop until after the tip strikes the ball.

The only exception might be if they are layed out over the table with the cue ball far up table.
 
i drop my elbow after the contact, i'm far from being a champion, but i been around long enough to know if drop it BEFORE you contact the CB you have big problems. in snooker I try my best not to drop it at all.
 
the last two instructors i had wanted me to keep the elbow up/flat so a cup of coffee or a bottle of water wouldnt fall off of it - AFTER THE SHOT!!!

??????

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
the last two instructors i had wanted me to keep the elbow up/flat so a cup of coffee or a bottle of water wouldnt fall off of it - AFTER THE SHOT!!!
Click to expand...

The principle is essentially irrefutable that, for fine and accurate movements, it's best to minimize muscle input, and have muscles not directly involved be relaxed. It just makes sense--fewer things to go wrong.
 
GetMeThere said:
The principle is essentially irrefutable that, for fine and accurate movements, it's best to minimize muscle input, and have muscles not directly involved be relaxed. It just makes sense--fewer things to go wrong.
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True.

so Earl and Ray dont have the classic pool stroke then. or do they? if they do perhaps i do to. assuming i am dropping my elbow - after contact.

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
True.

so Earl and Ray dont have the classic pool stroke then. or do they? if they do perhaps i do to. assuming i am dropping my elbow - after contact.

DCP
Click to expand...

I've noted (to myself) before that Earl has a very distinctive, intentional follow-through that involves dropping his elbow. But the fact remains that he does it AFTER the CB has already been struck so, functionally, it doesn't matter.

Another example of that is in a video of Mike Massey that was made by Dr. Dave. Mike obviously drops his elbow in an "effort" to put power into the stroke--but the elbow doesn't drop until long after the CB has been hit and is heading down the table. In fact, in this video Mike explains how it's necessary to drop the elbow to get the power--but indeed the elbow dropping is only a psychological mechanism, and not a physically relevant one.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
i was watching a tape from the 2002 U.S. Open earlier today. It was Strickland against Deuel, on the TV table. Incardona and Wyche were commentating.

anyway, since the elbow drop seems to be a big topic on this forum i just wanted to mention that i noticed Strickland dropping his elbow repeatedly on his shots. here's one of the greatest players of all time and he has, according to alot of knowledgeable people, a flaw in his stroke.

all this makes me believe what i have always been taught. that being if you can repeatedly make that cue tip stroke straight through the line and contact the CB right at the aim point, not a whole lot else matters.

Just thought i'd toss this out in case anyone wants to discuss.

DCP
Click to expand...

can you put that match up on youtube? I'd like to see it
 
We're talking about 2 different kinds of stroke, both correct:
1. Stroke without elbow drop - "short"
2. Stroke with elbow drop - "continuous"
"Continuous" stroke ends in a longer follow of the cue and longer duration of the tip-cueball contact time, thus resulting in more linear speed for the cueball.
In "short" stroke the cue follows shorter and the tip remains in contact with the cueball for a shorter period, thus resulting in more spin speed of the cueball!
So, here come together the 4 basic elements of stroke:
-Target point (aim)
-Cueball contact point (spin)
-Speed
-Way of release ("continuous" or "short")
When you change even 1 of the above the stroke changes, regardless of having the same result or not (you can achieve the same result on a cueball action in different ways..).
Generally the cue should be "released" in stroke (start of the follow through phase) just before the cue tip reaches the cueball, and that applies for all kinds of strokes, especially for the break shot in 8-9-10 ball! When you start your follow through earlier (premature ejac... sorry I meant release!) then usually the tip does not contact the cueball at the intended spot and this mistake is enhanced in higher stroke speeds like the break shot mentioned above! This has nothing to do with drop or not drop elbow but only with the moment of release!
Try aming straight ahead at a rail, keeping stable aim point/spin point/speed and alter between a long ("continuous") follow through with drop elbow and "short" follow through without drop elbow. In a "short" stroke the cueball will acquire more spin speed and the angle of the cushion will open more compared to the "continuous" stroke!
The applications of the above knowledge are endless and I would need a few diagrams to explain them best..
Hope I can get some posted in the future.
Thanks for your time,
Petros
 
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GetMeThere said:
The principle is essentially irrefutable that, for fine and accurate movements, it's best to minimize muscle input, and have muscles not directly involved be relaxed. It just makes sense--fewer things to go wrong.
Click to expand...

It takes more muscle input to keep your elbow pinned rather than letting it drop.
 
Funny.................

It's funny that A LOT of people agree that Earl Strickland has a flaw in his stroke..but yet with this alleged flaw he's a champion of champions and a God given talented cueist.....Maybe all of US are the ones with the flawed stroke......
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
the last two instructors i had wanted me to keep the elbow up/flat so a cup of coffee or a bottle of water wouldnt fall off of it - AFTER THE SHOT!!!

??????

DCP
Click to expand...

They are old school. That would be like wanting you to place feet 45 degrees to shot and stand up tall. The game has change and every great player today drops the elbow.

This was the biggest change with the best results that I have ever made to my game. I listen to Ronnie O talk about elbow dropping and gave it a try. Stroke is straighter, more power, smoother more natural feeling.

What Ronnie said.... "Shoot with your elbow". I will find the video and post it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVjIZpY3Yug

5 min mark.
 
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Regarding Earl's stroke:
IMHO it's one of the most beautiful things I've seen in pool, I see no flaws at all, one of the most impressive stroke mechanisms the game has ever seen. Man the things he could do with the cueball...
I had the pleasure of chating with him a bit while I drove him to his hotel when he was in Athens. Among other things he mentioned the "twist" he uses while stroking the cueball, hitting it differently.. This is another issue which has been extensively talked about, I believe only a few extremely talented players have mastered such techniques. It involves elbow drop but I'm not sure if even they can clearly explain the principle behind it.. IMHO and as a friendly advice to fellow players, this is not for the rest of us simple humans, and is not a necessity for playing good or even top pool..
Thanks again for the pleasure in talking about pool basics.
Petros
 
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The ball has no idea if you dropped your elbow, stood on one foot, or had your thumb up your backside. As long as you stroke straight through the shot you're good to go.
MULLY
 
True, the "cueball" knows nothing about stroke mechanism but does "know" 4 things as I described earlier:
-Where it is aimed at (aim)
-Where does the cue tip contacts it (spin)
-What is the initial speed of it (stroke speed)
-How long does the cue tip remains in contact with it, which is altered a bit by the drop/non drop elbow techinques
These are the 4 basic elements of stroke related straightly to the materials affecting them: Cue parts and table conditions..
So all those things are created mechanisms for us to help us set up repeated techniques for sending the cueball at a desired location. Really the cueball does not "know" "right" or "left" english for e.g. these are just terms (necessary) in order to categorize the point of contact between cue tip and cueball, describing the effect taking place according to each point..
Petros
 
Jason Robichaud said:
... What Ronnie said.... "Shoot with your elbow". I will find the video and post it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVjIZpY3Yug

5 min mark.
Click to expand...
I watched that video, and he seems to be saying to keep the shoulder joint locked and have only the elbow joint move which means the elbow is not dropping. After he gives the explanation, the example shot by the student in the video has no elbow drop.
 
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