You will have to show me some proof on this statement:
"How long does the cue tip remains in contact with it, which is altered a bit by the drop/non drop elbow techinques"
SPF=randyg
Earl's Elbow
- Thread starter DrCue'sProtege
- Start date
You will have to show me some proof on this statement:
"How long does the cue tip remains in contact with it, which is altered a bit by the drop/non drop elbow techinques"
SPF=randyg
Watch his stroke at the end, you can clearly see how he drops on all his shots. There is another video with more detail but I'm having a hard time finding it. He talks about dropping the elbow on the line.
To Mr randyg:
First of all thank you for taking the time to reply to my understanding of the topic, I'm honored a certified instructor does.
I don't have a specific camera proof but it makes sense to most experienced players I've known that when you make a longer follow through (drop elbow) the cue tip remains just a fraction of time longer in contact with the cueball, "following" more to it.
On the other hand, on a "short" follow through (no elbow drop) the cue tip is supposed to remain a fraction of time less in contact with the cueball.
This is a very subtle difference, and helps mostly in terms of execution...
The difference in cueball reaction does exist though..
I've discussed this in length with my good friend Nickos Polychronopoulos, Greek 3c champion and one of the best 3c players in the world today.
The difference in "short" (no elbow drop) and "continuous" (elbow drop) follow through is discussed systematically for the first time in the famous book of the legend Raymond Ceulemans regarding systemic 3c billiards.
Also I'm sure you will agree that a soft tip "grabs" the cueball "more" - remains in contact more with the cueball during stroke.
Those principles regarding cueball behavior apply to all games including pool.
This is enough proof for me.
In respect,
Petros Andrikopoulos
First of all thank you for taking the time to reply to my understanding of the topic, I'm honored a certified instructor does.
I don't have a specific camera proof but it makes sense to most experienced players I've known that when you make a longer follow through (drop elbow) the cue tip remains just a fraction of time longer in contact with the cueball, "following" more to it.
On the other hand, on a "short" follow through (no elbow drop) the cue tip is supposed to remain a fraction of time less in contact with the cueball.
This is a very subtle difference, and helps mostly in terms of execution...
The difference in cueball reaction does exist though..
I've discussed this in length with my good friend Nickos Polychronopoulos, Greek 3c champion and one of the best 3c players in the world today.
The difference in "short" (no elbow drop) and "continuous" (elbow drop) follow through is discussed systematically for the first time in the famous book of the legend Raymond Ceulemans regarding systemic 3c billiards.
Also I'm sure you will agree that a soft tip "grabs" the cueball "more" - remains in contact more with the cueball during stroke.
Those principles regarding cueball behavior apply to all games including pool.
This is enough proof for me.
In respect,
Petros Andrikopoulos
Last edited:
In this video at 4:30 you can get a look at Ronnie shooting. As with most good players I would contend that the elbow drop occurs after the tip contacts the cue ball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKz_1UG5Obs&feature=related
Question to the instructors:
Its without a doubt nearly every pro drops his elbow. The general consensus is that its after cueball contact.
So why not advocate and teach this, instead of a constantly pinned elbow during the entire duration of the stroke? I suspect the answer is the pinned elbow is easier for the student to learn. I also have read that the instructors will not suggest to change their student's strokes if they are repeatable and consistent. However, have the instructors purposefully tried teaching any of their students to shoot with an elbow drop after cueball contact, like nearly every pro does? If so, what were the results? Was it easier or harder for the student to learn? Once (if) the student learned, was their performance better than the student who learned to keep the elbow pinned?
Thanks for the response.
Its without a doubt nearly every pro drops his elbow. The general consensus is that its after cueball contact.
So why not advocate and teach this, instead of a constantly pinned elbow during the entire duration of the stroke? I suspect the answer is the pinned elbow is easier for the student to learn. I also have read that the instructors will not suggest to change their student's strokes if they are repeatable and consistent. However, have the instructors purposefully tried teaching any of their students to shoot with an elbow drop after cueball contact, like nearly every pro does? If so, what were the results? Was it easier or harder for the student to learn? Once (if) the student learned, was their performance better than the student who learned to keep the elbow pinned?
Thanks for the response.
For me the difference is significant between drop/no drop of elbow as I explained above.
IMHO advanced play should include both of these kind of strokes applied according to a given situation.
If I could provide diagrams I could be more specific sorry, I will try..
Thanks,
Petros
PS I'm not an instructor or a world class player and I apologise if I sound "smart" that is not my intention at all.
I just liked the topic and offered my opinion that's all.
IMHO advanced play should include both of these kind of strokes applied according to a given situation.
If I could provide diagrams I could be more specific sorry, I will try..
Thanks,
Petros
PS I'm not an instructor or a world class player and I apologise if I sound "smart" that is not my intention at all.
I just liked the topic and offered my opinion that's all.
Last edited:
Well, yes, but... on the video, he seems to be advocating keeping the elbow still. I'm not saying that's what he actually does in play or even what he does in the example shots you see him shoot in that video, I'm just saying that's what he says in the video. As for what he does, I'm pretty sure he addresses the cue ball where he intends to hit it and he hits it there. There are several ways to accomplish that. Several top snooker pros seem to have a piston stroke.
See this article for some general observations about elbow drop, and this article for some specific player observations.
i agree with Petros, we had the "elbow drop" wars on AZB a few years back thread after thread, everyone has their own opinion.
so here is mine:
the lighter the balls the less effect elbow drop has, on big fat billiard balls elbow drop can add a little contact time, a small fraction of a secone .05 i dont know, not much but some. Little tiny snooker balls 2 1/16" elbow drop is a problem and dosent seem to make a diference they are so light they seem to "bounce off the soft tip on a ash cue instantly",
I've hit every kind of ball possiblre with every cue and can drop my elbow, when i want or keep it flat like Randy, or scott recommend. And the 2 diffferent strokes do have a different effect on where the CB end ends up. I watched SVB for a few hours on and off when he comes to stay with me. I sit there and say nothing, come and go as I please. I dont want to bother him. He does both strokes. Its real tough to teach how to drop the elbow stroke and takes longer to devlop it. So if I was a instructor I'd teach the no-drop. I wish I had a instructoe when I was 13-14 I'd be one hell of alot better than I am now,
Thanks for the links to your articles Bob. Read them both.
I wonder what the "Jacksonville Experiment" shows. Maybe once again Bob Jewett could chime in here.
I'm under the impression that the time is "infinitesimal"!....SPF=randyg
OK. How many "pros" would you like for me to find for you that DON't drop their elbow? A few come to mind right away.
The reason I chose to use a Pendulum stroke is simple: It has fewer moving parts therefore fewer things to learn and master. This gives me the same movement before-during-after in every one of my strokes. Now I know my Finish position and how to obtain it on every stroke. All this adds up to CONSISTENCY.
If it doesn't make any difference (to the cue ball) if the elbow is dropped after contact, then why drop it at all????? I just had to pick a camp. This is the camp I chose years ago. The results are quicker to learn and easier to manage under pressure. The same Finish position on every shot is great for my Mental side also.
Nice post....
SPF=randyg
Elbow drop
Earl is no doubt a great player. I have seen him play in a TV match where he was wearing a weight on his elbow during a match. This was like an ankle weight. I have had an instructor tell me that if you have to hold up that weight than it is more difficult to drop your elbow. I forgot who he was playing but very interesting he would play with that weight in a match. Perhaps even he works on the same fundamentals we all should.
Earl is no doubt a great player. I have seen him play in a TV match where he was wearing a weight on his elbow during a match. This was like an ankle weight. I have had an instructor tell me that if you have to hold up that weight than it is more difficult to drop your elbow. I forgot who he was playing but very interesting he would play with that weight in a match. Perhaps even he works on the same fundamentals we all should.
OK. How many "pros" would you like for me to find for you that DON't drop their elbow? A few come to mind right away.
The reason I chose to use a Pendulum stroke is simple: It has fewer moving parts therefore fewer things to learn and master. This gives me the same movement before-during-after in every one of my strokes. Now I know my Finish position and how to obtain it on every stroke. All this adds up to CONSISTENCY.
If it doesn't make any difference (to the cue ball) if the elbow is dropped after contact, then why drop it at all????? I just had to pick a camp. This is the camp I chose years ago. The results are quicker to learn and easier to manage under pressure. The same Finish position on every shot is great for my Mental side also.
Nice post....
SPF=randyg
Yes, you will be able to find pros who have static elbows, mostly on the women's side. But they will be the exception. All you have to do is watch ANY pro event and probably 95% of the field will drop their elbows on all their shots that are not slow bunt shots. Anyway, that was not what I was getting at. I do know the pros of using the pendulum stroke. I had a good lesson on it from Scott Lee, and have read all the threads about it on here as well. I was asking more if the instructors ever tried to teach the dropping elbow stroke, and was it successful.
Don't do that!
Well it's a lot harder to learn to do properly, that's for sure. Scott likes to teach a Dependable, Reliable and Repeatable stroke. Sounds great to me
Remember. With time we can grove any habit, good or bad.....SPF=randyg
Just a final summary IMHO:
If you want to achieve more spin in a given situation use a short follow through.
If you want to achieve more linear speed (or avoid excess spin!) use a long follow through (drop elbow).
Though basic principles apply, there are different approaches to them. For e.g.:
"A pause before stroke is considered a characteristic of a faulty stroke" - from Raymond Ceulemans book.
So do Snooker players play wrong? Certainly not!
As far as consistency, I don't think anyone could top Raymond Ceulemans the most consistent athlet of all times winning more than 100 world championships!
His approach is also practical, everybody can see the difference on the table using drop and non drop elbow follow through, keeping the other basic elements of the stroke stable (aim, spin, speed)!
The difference exists, applies for all games including pool and I think he is one of the top authorities on everything that has to do with cueball behaviour!
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge on this!
Petros
If you want to achieve more spin in a given situation use a short follow through.
If you want to achieve more linear speed (or avoid excess spin!) use a long follow through (drop elbow).
Though basic principles apply, there are different approaches to them. For e.g.:
"A pause before stroke is considered a characteristic of a faulty stroke" - from Raymond Ceulemans book.
So do Snooker players play wrong? Certainly not!
As far as consistency, I don't think anyone could top Raymond Ceulemans the most consistent athlet of all times winning more than 100 world championships!
His approach is also practical, everybody can see the difference on the table using drop and non drop elbow follow through, keeping the other basic elements of the stroke stable (aim, spin, speed)!
The difference exists, applies for all games including pool and I think he is one of the top authorities on everything that has to do with cueball behaviour!
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge on this!
Petros
Last edited:
Now I understand your thinking, thanks....SPF=randyg
"keep the elbow up/flat so a cup of coffee or a bottle of water wouldnt fall off of it"
The last time we had this disussion, nobody could seem to post an example of a pro level player with a static elbow on hard shots. The best they could do was find people with a small drop, maybe 2 or 3 inches. They would definitely not like a hot cup of coffee up there.