Easier draw Drag shot?

[3RAILKICK]

With outside or inside english?

Hope I'm describing this correctly..cb hit with draw and side english that 'turns over' just before hitting OB, that may slightly masse at the end, and 'gear'/throw OB into pocket, and then come softly off rail in the direction dictated by the english.

In the few cases when I can get it to work, outside english seems easier.

You?

Any advice about improving results hitting this shot with slow sliding inside draw?

thanks


...in general, inside english kicks my butt:banghead::banghead:

 

[Zphix]

Max Eberle Coaching

Check out his shot on the 5-ball from 7:30 onward. He explains what he's doing and it's a drag shot with English - after the shot he explains how to more effectively shoot it.

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

The shot you're describing we called the 'spin-kill-slide' shot. I learned it from Baltimore Buddy Dennis in the late 60's. It comes up a lot in 1 pkt, but very few people shoot it. With a ball on the spot and a ball on the bottom rail a diamond away from your opponents pkt, its a great shot to make the spot shot ( or get it close ) and lay the cb on the rail behind the ob on the rail.
Outside is easier to aim than inside, but it can be done with either ( or center ). Depends on where you want the cb to be. Long slow draw stroke is used so whitey 'just' starts to turn over when hitting the ob.
Good luck

 

[bbb]

With outside or inside english?

Hope I'm describing this correctly..cb hit with draw and side english that 'turns over' just before hitting OB, that may slightly masse at the end, and 'gear'/throw OB into pocket, and then come softly off rail in the direction dictated by the english.

In the few cases when I can get it to work, outside english seems easier.

You?

Any advice about improving results hitting this shot with slow sliding inside draw?

thanks


...in general, inside english kicks my butt:banghead::banghead:

i havent read the other replies,,,
when you shoot with draw drag
most of the time
as i understand it
you are trying to stroke the cue ball NOT ROLL IT
BUT
you want to hit the object ball softly
whatever spin you would get from hitting it with low right or low left
by the the time it turns to ROLLING
there wont be much english on it
SO
why complicate the shot and just use vertical axis drag draw
jmho
icbw

 

[3RAILKICK]

Max Eberle Coaching

Check out his shot on the 5-ball from 7:30 onward. He explains what he's doing and it's a drag shot with English - after the shot he explains how to more effectively shoot it.

Thanks for the link, I really like Max's instructional stuff.

But that 5 ball shot is more a 'soft draw' shot than the shot I'm talking about. A drag shot would have killed near the rail. But similarly...I think there is the sense of almost deceleration on both shots, but on the 5 ball shot, the draw and english remain active, the cb has not begun to 'turn over'.

Maybe I haven't been clear in asking the question.

 

[3RAILKICK]

i havent read the other replies,,,
when you shoot with draw drag
most of the time
as i understand it
you are trying to stroke the cue ball NOT ROLL IT
BUT
you want to hit the object ball softly
whatever spin you would get from hitting it with low right or low left
by the the time it turns to ROLLING
there wont be much english on it
SO
why complicate the shot and just use vertical axis drag draw
jmho
icbw

Yes, it is a more complicated shot.

The english is still there, just as the cb 'turns over', not yet transitioned to 'rolling'. That is where the 'gear effect' comes from, throwing the OB to the pocket. Then the english will make the cb react to hitting the rail in the desired direction, that vertical axis drag draw will not do.

Agreed, due to the complications, your suggested shot is easier, although not easy. It just may not yield the wanted result. But the desired result may not justify missing the shot, trying to do too much.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Chrippa]

Love that shot. Works great both inside and out. First I thought outside was easier but with practice it has turned to inside.
When using inside you are going into to the ob and that gives you a bigger margin imo.

I also elevate the cue in different angles to produce the effect I want. Sounds maybe difficult but with practice it´s "just another shot" sort of.

Can bee a mayor game winner.

Believe it, see it - do it

Chrippa

 

[3RAILKICK]

The shot you're describing we called the 'spin-kill-slide' shot. I learned it from Baltimore Buddy Dennis in the late 60's. It comes up a lot in 1 pkt, but very few people shoot it. With a ball on the spot and a ball on the bottom rail a diamond away from your opponents pkt, its a great shot to make the spot shot ( or get it close ) and lay the cb on the rail behind the ob on the rail.
Outside is easier to aim than inside, but it can be done with either ( or center ). Depends on where you want the cb to be. Long slow draw stroke is used so whitey 'just' starts to turn over when hitting the ob.

Good luck.Quote]




That's sounds like the shot that I'm asking about.

Nice shot when hit right.

Can be ugly when the draw is still fully working at cb/ob impact. Also ugly when the draw has rubbed off, and the cb is fully rolling at impact.

Since you have a good handle on this shot....will low right sliding draw turn into top left following english after the cb 'turns over'?

Thanks for your reply to the original question...

Any suggestions as to how to dial in this shot? I suspect it is a true 'feel' shot that has to be practiced a lot.

I agree with the 'good luck' part...not an easy shot.:grin:

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

The shot you're describing we called the 'spin-kill-slide' shot. I learned it from Baltimore Buddy Dennis in the late 60's. It comes up a lot in 1 pkt, but very few people shoot it. With a ball on the spot and a ball on the bottom rail a diamond away from your opponents pkt, its a great shot to make the spot shot ( or get it close ) and lay the cb on the rail behind the ob on the rail.
Outside is easier to aim than inside, but it can be done with either ( or center ). Depends on where you want the cb to be. Long slow draw stroke is used so whitey 'just' starts to turn over when hitting the ob.

Good luck.Quote]




That's sounds like the shot that I'm asking about.

Nice shot when hit right.

Can be ugly when the draw is still fully working at cb/ob impact. Also ugly when the draw has rubbed off, and the cb is fully rolling at impact.

Since you have a good handle on this shot....will low right sliding draw turn into top left following english after the cb 'turns over'?

Thanks for your reply to the original question...

Any suggestions as to how to dial in this shot? I suspect it is a true 'feel' shot that has to be practiced a lot.

I agree with the 'good luck' part...not an easy shot.:grin:

Speed is the most important part of the shot. Even if you mis-hit it, it will just not kill as much and will bonce off the rail instead of laying up. Hitting it with mostly draw, using a small amount right/left gives a bigger margin for error without 'selling out'.
This shot used to come up in 9 ball when we played 2 foul pushout because balls were spotted and scratches were ball in hand behind the line ( as 9 ball should be played...lol ). I practiced this shot playing $5-$10 a game 9 ball in the 60's and 70's. Figure it cost me around $300 to get it down...lol. But it made me $$$ when I did.

 

[bbb]

The shot you're describing we called the 'spin-kill-slide' shot. I learned it from Baltimore Buddy Dennis in the late 60's. It comes up a lot in 1 pkt, but very few people shoot it. With a ball on the spot and a ball on the bottom rail a diamond away from your opponents pkt, its a great shot to make the spot shot ( or get it close ) and lay the cb on the rail behind the ob on the rail.
Outside is easier to aim than inside, but it can be done with either ( or center ). Depends on where you want the cb to be. Long slow draw stroke is used so whitey 'just' starts to turn over when hitting the ob.
Good luck

that shot as i play it in one pocket the cue ball hits the side rail first then goes to the bottom rail for shape on the ball one diamond from your opponents pocket
its hit with more speed so that the english is still on the cue ball when it hits the side rail
if you are suggessting that you hit the spot shot ball and "dribble" to the end rail why would you need the spin??
maybe i dont understand your shot....?..............

 

[chefjeff]

i havent read the other replies,,,
when you shoot with draw drag
most of the time
as i understand it
you are trying to stroke the cue ball NOT ROLL IT
BUT
you want to hit the object ball softly
whatever spin you would get from hitting it with low right or low left
by the the time it turns to ROLLING
there wont be much english on it
SO
why complicate the shot and just use vertical axis drag draw
jmho
icbw

That's the whole purpose of using it, to get proper english spin off of the object ball (for whatever shape you're trying for).

If you just want to hit a soft shot (assuming the table is level enough), get a lesson from Scott Lee on how to do that. But when side is necessary at the cb/ob hit, draw drag is sometimes the only way to do that at the correct speed.

I hope that makes sense.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Pidge]

Seems to me most people miss and mess the shot up is because they don't accelerate through the cue ball. Its harder to accelerate when hitting softer shots, and often the ball either pots but you hit the shot too hard or you miss because you jab and decelerate through the cue ball. Incorporating a distinct pause at the end of the back swing can help to force you to cue through the cue ball smoothly, and should make the shot a whole lot easier.

 

[FranCrimi]

I don't recall using that technique to gear/throw the ob into the pocket as the op suggested. I use it for position purposes off a rail, to slow down the speed of the cb, or to swerve around an obstructing ball, or a combination of any of those three.

I think regardless of whether you're using inside or outside, the key is in finding the combination of speed, spin, and angle of attack that will bring the cb to the proper point of contact on the ob.

I think this is strictly a feel shot. Calculating may help some people, but in the end it comes down to feel.

 

[DaveK]

I used to practice this shot (albeit with NO siding)using a striped ball as the cueball. Line up the striped-cue-ball with the stripe horizontal and then you can more easily see exactly where the backspin wears off. A little more feedback for the learning process. Once you have the feel for where the backspin wears off there are many handy shape options you can control using the "drag shot".

Dave

 

[Pidge]

I just envision the shot as a soft stun run through. It has exactly the same effect as a more traditional firm stun run through with side but at larger cut angles you generally can't play this shot firm because the white travels too far so you hit lower and softer. Really limit how far your backswing is, pause, and follow through in am accelerated fashion. After practicing a few shots to get the speed of shot down so the CB has enough follow then its no more difficult than any other shot.

 

[Andrew Manning]

That's sounds like the shot that I'm asking about.

Nice shot when hit right.

Can be ugly when the draw is still fully working at cb/ob impact. Also ugly when the draw has rubbed off, and the cb is fully rolling at impact.

So you're talking about a shot from distance that has to be sliding at impact, but with slow speed and sidespin? I have trouble imagining a situation where that's the only way to achieve the result you want. And if it's not the only way, the other way is easier.

Since you have a good handle on this shot....will low right sliding draw turn into top left following english after the cb 'turns over'?

No, low right will turn into top right when the ball turns over.

-Andrew

 

[Ralph Kramden]

No, low right will turn into top right when the ball turns over.

-Andrew

Info above is correct and can be used to throw a OB.
Low right turns the CB over for a tilted right hand roll.

If you judge the exact moment that the CB turns over
it is possible to throw the OB without much CB squirt.

It's not hard to judge when the CB has side spin only.
Hit the OB when the CB horizontal spin is maximum.

As in a drag shot, speeds and timing must be correct.
.

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

that shot as i play it in one pocket the cue ball hits the side rail first then goes to the bottom rail for shape on the ball one diamond from your opponents pocket
its hit with more speed so that the english is still on the cue ball when it hits the side rail
if you are suggessting that you hit the spot shot ball and "dribble" to the end rail why would you need the spin??
maybe i dont understand your shot....?..............

I dont know many players with a stroke that can make a spot shot ( from behind the line ) and draw/ spin it to the side rail and kill it before the 1st diamond, esp on fast cloth, and esp with a measle ball. The idea of this shot is to lay the cb on the rail behind the 1st diamond ob making it safe if you miss the spot shot ( which will be close to your hole. You're shot has to be hit harder and if missed, the spot ball goes away. Also, with a little right draw, you can aim fuller on the spot ball to slow the cb down.

 

[3RAILKICK]

Thanks everyone.

I have work to do to trust this shot. A tough but fun shot...and maybe just the right shot in a given situation.

My congratulations to those who have mastered it.:thumbup:

 

[bbb]

So you're talking about a shot from distance that has to be sliding at impact, but with slow speed and sidespin? I have trouble imagining a situation where that's the only way to achieve the result you want. And if it's not the only way, the other way is easier.



No, low right will turn into top right when the ball turns over.

-Andrew

found a video from dr dave to demonstrate this concept (he uses low left turning into high left in the demo)
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#flip