Educate me about rails.

This is only a guess but it probably started from not being able to replace a Monarch Super Speed cushion with a direct replacement. A K66 makes the nose height wrong, a K55 maintains nose height but changes size of playing field, I think, maybe I have it backwards, someone will let me know about it, not a big deal but I think what is a bigger deal is your table is no longer twice as long as it is wide. If you use the diamond system for multiple rail shots or kicks it will be kittywhumpas compared to tables with correct dimensions. The pocket sizes are reduced to owners desire. The pocket angles are changed to the correct current industry standards and are all the same for each pocket on the table. The sub-rail angle is then changed so when the cushion is installed the nose height is correct as well as the angle of the top of the cushion. You can change the nose height by tipping the cushion mounting area one way or another but this affects how the cushion plays, thats the reason for modifying the sub-rail angle. I think that is the reason that the Blue & Red label Diamonds played differently from each other. Right or wrong this is the info I gathered while researching the pros and cons of gluing the wrong cushion on my GCII or paying the extra money to have the sub-rails extended and modified, hope it helps. I am very happy with the way my table plays. I had the chance to compare it to a 9' Diamond Blue last week and the diamond system and speed of the tables are very similar.
 
Ken_4fun said:
I agree with Freddy on this one, and we never agree.:thumbup:

When I hear people talking about "shiming", or "double shimming" they are basically using the same rails and then adding a piece of rubber on the inside of the pockets to make the pockets smaller.

They are using the existing "cushion" or "rail" and adding these pieces of rubber making the pocket smaller. After adding the pieces, the rail is recovered with the smaller opening. What happens is the table is basically ruined. You cannot make a bank shot off that rubber piece, and have any idea where the ball is actually going to go.

People who do this, IMO, really don't understand that this will probably make them play worse instead of better. What happens is smart players will not shoot the shots that they would normally shoot and they play differently. They don't play better, they play a different game.

IMO, anyone that "hacks" up a table like this, they really don't understand the game. But someone who really doesn't understand the game puts this "shimming" out there like a badge of honor and I look at it as someone that just told me they really don't have clue.

ON THE OTHER WAY

The mechanics put all new rubber (slightly longer) and the woodwork behind them and they can make the entire rail one piece so the table is tightened (smaller pockets), but will bank true.

While I am not a big fan of making it so tight that a ball will barely fit, making slight change probably isn't such a horrible thing.

So IMO, once you play on a "hacked up" table and try to make a bank or anything else on those "shimmed" pockets, you will fully understand some of the frustrations.

Hope that helps.

Ken
Click to expand...

I am not quite sure I understand. You are saying that when a shim is added instead of extending the rails then the entire rail is then messed up or just the part where the shim is?

I can clearly see that adding a stiffer piece to a softer piece would stiffen up the rail away from the pocket for a certain distance. Not clear on what that distance is or how it affects the banking.

How much does this really affect the play? I would guess that trying to bank off the rubber within say a ball's distance from the pocket point is a pretty rare shot, even in one pocket. I certainly haven't tested the properties of a shimmed table vs. an extended rail table but I would like to see a Dr. Dave style slow motion showing the different effects.

I would like to posit that I blame most of my banking misses on poorly done rails :-)

Makes me feel much better.

Thanks everyone for the education. It's much appreciated.
 
JB,... You are "showing yourself"

JB,

I would like to try an experiment w/you. Here is all you have to do:

Go play an older Gandy Table & then go play a tweaked table.

(I'm not picking on Gandy itself here, its just that I find older Gandy's are a tough play as its hard to get parts for them,so they rarely see reconditioning unless they get " tweeked.")

You'll find that upon shooting a 1 rail shot on an OB that you won't need as much running English, if any at all in some positions/angles(of the CB), on the table.

You'll also find that shimmed tables "bounce" off of the rails near the pocket a bit harder than a rail that has been properly extended for a tighter pocket.

And, YES you'll find tighter felt on the slate.

Try finding a place where you can play them side by side, or at least find 2 places nearby with both to do a comparison for how the tables "play.: (feel)

Having a great appreciation for this game, I prefer "tweeked" any time that is possible. :)

just my .02
 
fastone371 said:
This is only a guess but it probably started from not being able to replace a Monarch Super Speed cushion with a direct replacement. A K66 makes the nose height wrong, a K55 maintains nose height but changes size of playing field, I think, maybe I have it backwards, someone will let me know about it, not a big deal but I think what is a bigger deal is your table is no longer twice as long as it is wide. If you use the diamond system for multiple rail shots or kicks it will be kittywhumpas compared to tables with correct dimensions. The pocket sizes are reduced to owners desire. The pocket angles are changed to the correct current industry standards and are all the same for each pocket on the table. The sub-rail angle is then changed so when the cushion is installed the nose height is correct as well as the angle of the top of the cushion. You can change the nose height by tipping the cushion mounting area one way or another but this affects how the cushion plays, thats the reason for modifying the sub-rail angle. I think that is the reason that the Blue & Red label Diamonds played differently from each other. Right or wrong this is the info I gathered while researching the pros and cons of gluing the wrong cushion on my GCII or paying the extra money to have the sub-rails extended and modified, hope it helps. I am very happy with the way my table plays. I had the chance to compare it to a 9' Diamond Blue last week and the diamond system and speed of the tables are very similar.
Click to expand...
So did you end up having the sub-rails extended?
 
JB Cases said:
I am not quite sure I understand. You are saying that when a shim is added instead of extending the rails then the entire rail is then messed up or just the part where the shim is?

I can clearly see that adding a stiffer piece to a softer piece would stiffen up the rail away from the pocket for a certain distance. Not clear on what that distance is or how it affects the banking.

How much does this really affect the play? I would guess that trying to bank off the rubber within say a ball's distance from the pocket point is a pretty rare shot, even in one pocket. I certainly haven't tested the properties of a shimmed table vs. an extended rail table but I would like to see a Dr. Dave style slow motion showing the different effects.

I would like to posit that I blame most of my banking misses on poorly done rails :-)

Makes me feel much better.

Thanks everyone for the education. It's much appreciated.
Click to expand...

Hey John, It's not just when you bank off of the shim, it's also when you miss the shot and the cue ball hits the shim. It's sort of a dead spot and doesn't play very true off of that spot.
 
JB Cases said:
I am not quite sure I understand. You are saying that when a shim is added instead of extending the rails then the entire rail is then messed up or just the part where the shim is?

I can clearly see that adding a stiffer piece to a softer piece would stiffen up the rail away from the pocket for a certain distance. Not clear on what that distance is or how it affects the banking.

How much does this really affect the play? I would guess that trying to bank off the rubber within say a ball's distance from the pocket point is a pretty rare shot, even in one pocket. I certainly haven't tested the properties of a shimmed table vs. an extended rail table but I would like to see a Dr. Dave style slow motion showing the different effects.

I would like to posit that I blame most of my banking misses on poorly done rails :-)

Makes me feel much better.

Thanks everyone for the education. It's much appreciated.
Click to expand...

No with a shimmed pocket, or double shimmed pocket, the cross corner bank hitting that final inch of rail is common.

It is near impossible to play one pocket on a shimmed up table.

As far as making the entire rail dead or effecting it, not so much but that corner is worthless.

Whenever a shimmed table is involved, it is a screwed up mess.

Ken
 
My rails are in a mechanics shop right now, so I've been reading up a bit on the subject. There's an AZ thread from 2010 called "diamondizing" a table thread. In it, King Cobra states that he recently (2010) convinced diamond to implement his alteration of the diamond rail to better fit the Artemis cushion diamond uses.

He further stated that he could take an older un-altered diamond, alter it , and make it as good as the new - altered from the factory diamond, but he could not improve upon it: he could only tie it.

He says the altered diamond rail from 2010 causes the ball to bounce similar to that of a billiard table. I might be wrong, but when I read him closely he seems to me to be inferring that players for years have been asking Brunswick why they can't provide a rail and cushion that produces a bounce like a billiard table and Brunswick's answer has been they have no serious competitors,and hence; no desire to pay money to guys like him to do the necessary research and developement.

He also infers the same attitude prevailed at Brunswick when players asked why they couldn't make a 4.5 inch pocket that will accept balls that should be accepted and reject balls the should be rejected.

So according to King Cobra, (I'll stay out of the controversy and maybe other mechanics have other opinions. He posts the most) this extensive and expensive rail work which J.B. is reading about and questioning, is all an attempt to convert a pre- 2010 Diamond or Gold Crown to a table of equal quality to the post - 2010 Diamond, which in his opinion, when set up properly, needs no more work done to it; including the rails; and is the best playing table ever made. He also doesn't believe that the Gold Crown V tournament table is as good as the diamond. He cite's diamonds willingness to listen to players concerns and pay money for research and developement as the reason for their overtaking Gold Crown in quality.

For someone like me, who wants the best playing table out there, I had a choice. I could have paid for a new diamond, but I chose to buy a mint condition GC IV and have a highly regarded mechanic extend the rails ,reducing the pocket size from 5-1/8 to 4-3/8. He's also going to give me the Artemis cushions diamond uses and re-calibrate the rails to fit them. I believes some new simonis 860 is included in the package.

This is going to save me roughly $1700 to $2000 over purchasing the new diamond; and if all goes right, should provide a playability of equal quality to the new diamond. In fact,it would have been a lot cheaper if I had bought a Gold Crown with some scratches on it.

Anyhow; if anyone wants to read King Cobra's cogent, but detailed explanation of exactly what is done when rails are worked on in this manner, you can find it by typing ....."diamondizing" a table thread ..... Into Google. (include the quotation marks) The explanation is at post # 41.
 
Rusty Melton said:
Hey John, It's not just when you bank off of the shim, it's also when you miss the shot and the cue ball hits the shim. It's sort of a dead spot and doesn't play very true off of that spot.
Click to expand...

Bad shims can really change the dynamics of clearing your opponent's ball out of his pocket too. In my experience, a single shim can be well done and not have significant negative effects on play even for 1 pocket. Double shims and up seem to always go wrong.
 
Table

The trick is to knowing of what your doing with the materials at hand. Just about anyone can use and operate woodworking tools... The knowledge of knowing how to manipulate the tools and what your trying to achieve is extremely important.

If Houdini was to post pics of simple in someways but complex in other ways; rails that he worked on, you will always have someone trying to achieve the same results with lesser equipment or basic tools that was found in a trash can and rigged somehow to half-ass it in a garage that's powered with a 100 foot drop cord. It may look similar when the wool is pulled over the customers eyes... But in reality it's crap.

Replacing and calibrating sub-rails is very complex. If guys can't get the cloth on with-out it loosening shortly after or when the weather changes...how in the world are they going to grasp the concept of rail work? Not many get it'



Kinda like the videos john barton made of how to make a justis style case.. You can give ten DIY ppl the exact same instructions and you'll end up with 10 whacked up cases because the DIYers don't grasp the concept.... Repeat 100 times and that person will start learning and say to them self ahh' now I'm starting to understand why Its done this way and why instructed to do so..

There are guys that will spend 2k on a pool cue but won't spend 2k to have their tables upgraded....



Rob.M
 
Originally Posted by thefonz View Post
I'd like to see a pool table table built like the old riley steel railed tables.
................................................................................................................

Scaramouche said:
I tried to get a discussion on this topic - it died an neglected death, probably because American pool players and table manufacturers never heard of steel-block cushions. :D
Click to expand...

Or, perhaps because we understand Pool isn't Snooker.

Dale(who isn't anticipating world class 3 Cushion players to yearn for limey rails
anytime soon)
 
Dunnn51 said:
JB,

I would like to try an experiment w/you. Here is all you have to do:

Go play an older Gandy Table & then go play a tweaked table.

(I'm not picking on Gandy itself here, its just that I find older Gandy's are a tough play as its hard to get parts for them,so they rarely see reconditioning unless they get " tweeked.")

You'll find that upon shooting a 1 rail shot on an OB that you won't need as much running English, if any at all in some positions/angles(of the CB), on the table.

You'll also find that shimmed tables "bounce" off of the rails near the pocket a bit harder than a rail that has been properly extended for a tighter pocket.

And, YES you'll find tighter felt on the slate.

Try finding a place where you can play them side by side, or at least find 2 places nearby with both to do a comparison for how the tables "play.: (feel)

Having a great appreciation for this game, I prefer "tweeked" any time that is possible. :)

just my .02
Click to expand...

I am not sure what you mean by showing myself.

I simply asked a question so that I can have the right answers.
 
fastone371 said:
Yes sir. I had mine modified/tweaked Feb. 2013. At the end of my previous post I mentioned how it plays compared to a 9' Blue Label Diamond.
Click to expand...
It's good to hear you're happy with your sub-rail extension. It certainly is expensive, but I hired a top notch mechanic to do mine and I'm hoping I have to do nothing else with the table for a long, long time.
 
His Boy Elroy said:
It's good to hear you're happy with your sub-rail extension. It certainly is expensive, but I hired a top notch mechanic to do mine and I'm hoping I have to do nothing else with the table for a long, long time.
Click to expand...

I did not just have the sub-rail extensions added but also my sub-rails had to be modified for the new style cushions. My table originally had the Monarch Super Speeds which apparently there are no current cushions that match that profile. I have a GCII.
 
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