efren reyes vs mike sigel
- Thread starter scorpionjohnny
- Start date
Celtic said:
Hey Celtic,
Sorry, I guess I was one of the "culprits" who inferred Effren may have been a cut below Sigel, Hall, Archer, etc., but I was mainly talking about Major Title wins. I have no doubt Effren would have closed or overcome that gap had he played on the MPBA, PBT as much the other guys did. As stated in a previous post Effren had do deal with coming onto foreign soil and winning, which he did with great success!!! That in itself is worthy of mention and homage to his otherworldly greatness. I don't know how all of the touring American Pros of the '80's would've faired if there were a Pro Tour in the Phillipines!!!
During Sigel's heydey his confidence, mental game seemed so much stronger than everyone else's because he "consistently" backed it up, good rolls notwithstanding.
His peers didn't call him Mr. Finals and Captain Hook for nuthin'!!!I have the utmost awe, respect for Reyes and he deserves to be in the top 3 of the greatest players of all time. As a great, humble, true and sincerely warm hearted person he has NO peer - except for Sarah Rousey
- !!! It would've been a sweater's wet dream had he lived here full time (back then) totally acclimated and playing on Tour year end and year out. Then the "real" record would speak loud and clear. Oh and Archer. What tall, skinny kid from Ga. was always out there in the stands watching Sigel, Hall, Reyes, Strickland... - in their primes - and learning? You got it.
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Sigel vs Efren
As with all comparisons of players of whom all are not still actively competing there will be no winner determined but all the opinions make for great debate. From watching Sigel compete prior to his retirement from the game it is my opinion that he didn't quit because he was bored. He quit because competition was reaching parody and he was losing more than his ego could stand although he was still a great player. He was a much stronger front runner than he was coming from behind. If he could still dominate he would still be playing IMO.
As with all comparisons of players of whom all are not still actively competing there will be no winner determined but all the opinions make for great debate. From watching Sigel compete prior to his retirement from the game it is my opinion that he didn't quit because he was bored. He quit because competition was reaching parody and he was losing more than his ego could stand although he was still a great player. He was a much stronger front runner than he was coming from behind. If he could still dominate he would still be playing IMO.
Superstroke
Registered
Fred Agnir said:
Sounds like your talking about tournaments.
If i'm not mistaken, isn't Efren the reason that Sigel retired from gambling back in the day?
I seem to remember hearing that Sigel didn't think anyone in the world could give him the 8 for cash, and Efren gave him the 8 and crushed him for a lot of $$$$$.
Not sure of the details, but i think that Efren's bread and butter was gambling, and not tournaments. So if your gonna compare, gambling is a huge part the picture that people are leaving out.
Superstroke said:
yeah, gambling is another perspective you've got to consider...
yobagua said:
I do have a copy of the tape, and you really overstated the case for Efren. Here is what you said:
"I dont know if you realize it but Reyes and Sigel did meet up in the early 90's. 1994 i think. I have a tape of it somewhere. Sigel met Efren in a 2 day affair. 9 ball, Banks, and one pocket. Sigel did not have a chance and throws in the towel before the official end of the game. Lietrally. This took place at Hard Times in So Cal. A friend JJ made the tape."
You made it sound like Efren destroyed Sigel in all three games, when in fact Sigel beat Reyes in the nineball competition. And as others have pointed out, Sigel was beating everybody back then in winning all those tournaments, Efren included.
so combining the versions presented... efren won the one pocket and banks and mike won the 9 ball and threw the towel before the official end of the game...
bobson_215 said:
Yeah, but also consider this... Buddy Hall said he thought playing in and winning Tournaments was a lot tougher than gambling!!! This is from a Cat who at one time spotted the ENTIRE nation the 7-ball and busted most everybody who took him up on his offer!!! I'm not trying to make any personal judgments on tourneys vs. gambling, or use what he said to reinforce an argument. It's just interesting "HE" would say something like that.
F8it said:
And Buddy was right. I'll give the gamblers their due, because being successful at action pool is also very tough, but the gambler has room for error against any opponent. Play poorly this set or during this hour, and you may still emerge victorious.
Tournament play, in it's usual format, doesn't give you much room for error. Slow starts or streaks of poor play mean losses. Also, in the late stages of a top tourney, you have to knock off champion after champion to win. That's why we live in awe of those that win the biggest events. All Gabe Owen did to win the 2004 US Open was beat, in order, Rodney Morris, Tony Robles, Mika Immonen and Thorsten Hohmann. Wow! Which of our celebrated action players could have done that?
Winning on the biggest tournament stages requires sustained excellence, and history has shown that only the selelct few are up to it.
F
Fred Agnir
Guest
bobson_215 said:
What in the world is this about "throwing in the towel"? Do you guys even know what it means? It's a fun and respectful way to finish the match. Although giving games in the middle of a set can be considered sharking, I've never seen a towel throw at the end of a set as nothing more than respect. And nothing else. You guys are giving a bit too much emphasis on this move.
Everyone, and I mean everyone, has seen Efren do the same thing given the circumstances. It's not that big of a deal. (Someone go check the end of the 10-ball ring game. Did Efren throw in the towel then?)
Fred
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Fred Agnir said:
That's right, and that's exactly what Sigel did--he threw a towel onto the table when Reyes needed just one ball in the last game of the one-pocket match, and he was almost straight in with about a 2-foot shoot. Sigel did it playfully and also out of respect. The runout that Reyes makes in that game is one of the most impressive I've ever see, btw.
F8it said:
There's no objective matter of fact as to which aspect of competitive pool is more difficult--tournament play or heads-up gambling. Buddy was right in just the sense that, for Buddy, tournament play was tougher. For Sigel maybe it was the other way around. I've always found gambling easier because I know that if I'm better than the other guy I'll eventually beat him, wheareas in tournament play you get just one match to beat a guy. It's subjective, and there's no intrinsic fact of the matter as to which is more difficult.
F
Fred Agnir
Guest
PoolBum said:
Thanks for the confirmation. That's what I figured.
And, again someone please confirm this, my memory sucks but I seem to recall Efren throwing in the towel on Alex's final shot at the DCC Ring Game.
Fred
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. But I admit I am an unabashed big fan of Efren and think he is one of the greatest cueist that ever lived. Thats my Opinion. And admit I am prejudiced. But I also think that when you throw in the towel it means that you cannot come out of your corner and respond to the bell because you have been beaten. Throwing in the towel is not "fun" for any competitor. Also IMHO I do not think that Mike Sigel had a chance in the 2 out of 3 format with Efren at Hard Times. I think Mike did not expect Efren to be that strong and that he would be beaten so.
Rickw said:
I don't usually post a reply on these threads, but it got to the point that I just have to say something and hopefully put this matter to rest.
Mr. Agnir has a lot of good insights on Efren's games and I know that he has compiled a lot of info about Efren's games and achievements. I respect him for that.
Let me give you a little background of my experience in pool. I grew up in Manila and learned to play pool from the best players at the time. Names like Boy Bicol, Calamba, Bert Pasay, and more players than I can remember now. These were the names of pool players that you didn't want to gamble with.
And then, of course, Efren and Parica, Boy Samson and the rest of the gang who held reign for the longest time. When I got to college, Efren was already a household name in the country. I used to play with him and gamble with him and, you're right and I always lost to him. Oh, he'll let me win some and the next time that we play he will win with interest. After a while, we just agreed to stop gambling because we came to the point that we struck a real friendship.
I steered him towards rich Chinese students in my college who had more money than brains. He was the consummate hustler/actor. The Chinese kids lost a ton of money to us but they never, ever got upset with us. It's the way Efren stroked them while we were gambling. He had them eating out of his hand. I believed that at that time he had already mastered the art of hustling/winning in pool.
When he came to the good ole USA, he saw a golden opportunity to make a living and help his extended family back in the Philippines..
His favorite motto was "why kill the goose that lays the golden egg?" That's how he looked at all these other players. Sigel wasn't the only victimthat he played for a long time, there's Rempe, whom he beat for a lot of money, Mizerak, who was boasting that nobody can spot him, yet asked for the 7 when he started playing Efren, the pool owner up in Buffalo, NY, played snooker with Efren, lost a ton of money and still wants to play Efren, his legendary money games in New Orleans that almost nobody hears about, his almost sickening game with Amarillo Slim when he played him, Slim asked for the moon and the stars, got it, and got robbed.
I'm running out steam, but for you guys who follow the careers of these great pool players, nobody but nobody can top Efren's achevements, his winnings, past or present.
Like what they say, "Who's your daddy now?"