efren reyes vs mike sigel

[PoolBum]

The other way around. In the 80's and early 90's, Efren had the habit of making it to finals or semifinal matches and lose to Sigel (or whomever else was in the finals). Sigel something over 75% (or something even higher) of all his finals matches, whereas Efren never seemed to win more than a handful in ten years.

9-ball - If it's prime vs. prime, Sigel already beat Efren when both were in their prime in 9-ball, so, IMO, that's put to bed.

14.1 - Sigel. Not even close

one-pocket - Efren, but Sigel in his later years when he had pretty much retired also won a major one-pocket event. So, it's not that far apart, prime vs. prime.

8-ball - both have world championships. In Sigel's prime, he simply was the best player on the planet. 8-ball was an easy game for him as well.

Rotation - Efren. I doubt Sigel paid much attention to Rotation.

I feel sorry for the people who got into pool after Sigel got bored with it. He was *that* good. Efren is easily the best all-around player, but he didn't have the fire power that Sigel had. Sigel was the best offensive player, as well as being the best defensive player. And he seemed to have the most luck going his way. And because of that, he always made the right decision since he had both offense and defense to work with. We'e talking about a guy who dominated his era, an era filled with hall-of-fame legends who were in their prime

Fred

Well said, Fred. It's amazing to say this, but Mike Sigel might actually be underrated. Even at that, he's considered by most to be a top five all-time player. He is, arguably, the greatest player in both disciplines that have historically dominated professional pool--straight pool and nine ball. NO ONE else in the history of the game I think has as much claim to that as Mike Sigel, or even a reasonable claim to that. Latter day rivals to Sigel in nine ball would include Buddy Hall, Earl Strickland, and Varner in his prime, though I suspect Sigel has an overall winning record against all of them, and Efren as well. In straight pool there is only one latter-day player in Sigel's class, IMO, and that is Steve Mizerak--there I think it is very close, with the two of them and possibly Mosconi, Greenleaf, and Crane mentioned in the same breath in the history of the game.

 

[Cynion]

I might be wrong but I thought I read somewhere on the internet one time an article where either Efren or a good friend of Efren's had said that his best years were before he ever came to the states in 85. So, in my opinion to say who was best in each discipline in their prime can't even be argued unless you saw efren play in phillippines in the years prior to 1985.

 

[sjm]

who would win?...

one pocket Reyes
8 ball Reyes
9 ball Sigel
rotation Reyes
straight pool Sigel
carom you're kidding, right?

 

[Bobby]

who would win?

in:
one pocket
8 ball
9 ball
rotation
straight pool
carom
etc...

One Pocket: Reyes
8-ball: Sigel
9-ball: Sigel
Straight pool: Sigel

As for Rotation and Carom I can't honestly say
because I've never seen either player play those
games. I mean there are no rotation tournaments that
I know of.

I would gladly pay good money to see Sigel and Reyes
play a challenge match where they had to play all
the above mentioned games over say 3 or 4 days (long
races). I would pick Sigel as the overall winner but
it would probably be close either way. And why
stop there? You could have Nick Varner play the
winner or Thorsten Hohmann would be a good choice.

 

[LastTwo]

What about banks? I think Reyes would take that.

 

[Celtic]

Lets us not forget chess, Efren is likely better at chess. And is Sigel bi lingual? Score another one for Reyes. Reyes is more friendly, I think that should count too. Does Reyes play Majong? I bet Sigel would not have a chance against him in Majong! Efren definately has more hair, +1 Reyes....

 

[yobagua]

I dont know if you realize it but Reyes and Sigel did meet up in the early 90's. 1994 i think. I have a tape of it somewhere. Sigel met Efren in a 2 day affair. 9 ball, Banks, and one pocket. Sigel did not have a chance and throws in the towel before the official end of the game. Lietrally. This took place at Hard Times in So Cal. A friend JJ made the tape. Of course you might say that Sigel was on the down side of an amazing career and Efren was at the summit. But I think he plays better now than 10 years ago. Certainly his one pocket game has gotten from great to unwordly.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I dont know if you realize it but Reyes and Sigel did meet up in the early 90's. 1994 i think. I have a tape of it somewhere. Sigel met Efren in a 2 day affair. 9 ball, Banks, and one pocket. Sigel did not have a chance and throws in the towel before the official end of the game. Lietrally. This took place at Hard Times in So Cal. A friend JJ made the tape. Of course you might say that Sigel was on the down side of an amazing career and Efren was at the summit. But I think he plays better now than 10 years ago. Certainly his one pocket game has gotten from great to unwordly.

Supposedly Efren beat Sigel on rotation at Reds.
Efren lost to Buddy Hall on a 10-ball match though.

 

[F8it]

Maybe you misunderstood. I didn't mean to say that Sigel beat Reyes one time here and there. Sigel was beating everyone's brains in from the late 70's until late 80's. Sigel in his prime was clearly better than everyone else on the planet. That included Efren Reyes. Reyes did not beat Sigel a lot, but Sigel certainly beat Reyes a lot. Understand? It wasn't as close as people are saying. Efren didn't start a winning streak in 9-ball until early 90's. And, IMO, one reason for that is because Sigel was already bored with pool.

As great as Efren was in the 80's, he wasn't even considered the second best 9-ball player at that time. Buddy Hall would have that distinction, along with Earl and Nick.

Fred

Tap Tap Tap! Couldn't have said it better!!! "I THINK" all gr8 players are measured by supremacy over their peers. It's a tribute to Sigel's gr8 talent/skills how he dominated in - of all games - 9-ball!!!(?) Not to mention a total of 103(?) combined titles in 8-ball, 9-ball, Straight Pool, One Pocket. Hard to dispute this dude's record!

Also think about his Major titles, and winning records against talents like: St. Louis Louis, Pretty Boy Floyd, The "Ice Man", Medina, Davenport, The Miz, Parica, Varner, The Pearl, The Rifleman, etc., etc.!!! For a decade!!! A Herculean feat!!! The Jack Nicklaus of Pool? Damn straight!!!

Reyes has the best overall mastery in almost all games. The man "invented" Kick/Finesse safeties... His accuracy, control, kick shots, for that matter everything else: jaw dropping!!! I'm not even going to get into his powerful stroke shots! A gr8 player? Better believe it!!! A gr8 Champion? Yes, but not on the same level as say Sigel, Archer, Hall...

To paraphrase gr8 golfer Lee Trevino years ago: "I'm one the greats like an orange hanging from a tree (a shameless plug for FL Orange Juice) but I'm the one hanging a little lower than the others." Reyes is up there for sure but not quite as high. Reyes could've dominated if he played in every tournament and tour. Still, the mental edge would probably still go to Mike. He was a real merciless killer!

Buddy Hall, my all time favorite (Sigel used to be) was absolutely a dominant force in that era too. My friend was right when he said years ago: "When Buddy's right no one plays the game of 9 ball better, NOOBODY!" Danny DiLiberto said essentially the same thing in the mid '80's. Hell, he can still dab it good today! Sigel said it was frustrating playing his best 9-ball, not missing or making mistakes playing Buddy and the score being even!!!

Buddy also had the edge on Reyes for quite some time before Reyes overcame the high speed wobbles against him. Remember, Buddy was the only top pro player to beat him gambling after a tournament when Effen first came onto the scene as aka Caesar Morales and having taken many famous scalps. After that beating it took quite a while for "Caesar" to overcome 'ol Bud.


Lastly, Mosconi epitomized dominance. He also played world class 3-cushion and even beat a snooker champion in exhibition! Talk about guy that would shove all 'dem pool balls up your ass and then some!!! Lol!

C-I-A-B-A-T-T-A... Ciabatta, Peace out!

 

[Rickw]

In straight pool there is only one latter-day player in Sigel's class, IMO, and that is Steve Mizerak--there I think it is very close, with the two of them and possibly Mosconi, Greenleaf, and Crane mentioned in the same breath in the history of the game.

Unfortunately, we cannot really compare Mosconi and Greenleaf to our current players because they were forced to play with completely different equipment:

Tables were 5X10's with tighter pockets.
Balls were different and not always perfectly round.
The cloth was different too.

Given the tougher conditions, Greenleaf was absolutley awesome from what I've read. My guess would be that he was probably the best player ever to play pool.

 

[recoveryjones]

Unfortunately, we cannot really compare Mosconi and Greenleaf to our current players because they were forced to play with completely different equipment:

Tables were 5X10's with tighter pockets.
Balls were different and not always perfectly round.
The cloth was different too.

Given the tougher conditions, Greenleaf was absolutley awesome from what I've read. My guess would be that he was probably the best player ever to play pool.

Hi Rick, Personally I don't know about this table dimmension, tight pocket thing because I wasn't there.

I do have a Grady mathews video( can't remember which one at the moment, Ihave them all) where he talks about playing conditions of then and now.

He does say that the pockets were a much bigger 5" wide,(in Mosconi's era) this I know FOR SURE.He said also that the "Mud Balls" they used were easier to play with, however, didn't spread as well (in 14.1) in breaking out the pack.

I THINK (with emphasis on the I THINK) that he said that Mosconi either played or made his legendary high run on an 8' table and not a 10 footer.I could be wrong on this table dimmension thing and I stand corrected if I am.


I'm not looking for an argument here, however, maybe some of our more knowledgable pool personal here can verify yours and my observations.The whole thing now has me curious.Take care,RJ

 

[sjm]

I THINK (with emphasis on the I THINK) that he said that Mosconi either played or made his legendary high run on an 8' table and not a 10 footer.I could be wrong on this table dimmension thing and I stand corrected if I am.

You are correct, Mosconi's run was on a 4 x 8. Olhasbeen once made the following post on the subject:

Willie's famous 526 run was on a 4 X 8 with at least 4.3/4 inch pockets. The only amazing thing about this feat was that he didn't scratch earlier then he did. I saw the table in Pekin, IL and talked to the VERY FEW who saw it.

 

[Rickw]

Hi Rick, Personally I don't know about this table dimmension, tight pocket thing because I wasn't there.

I do have a Grady mathews video( can't remember which one at the moment, Ihave them all) where he talks about playing conditions of then and now.

He does say that the pockets were a much bigger 5" wide,(in Mosconi's era) this I know FOR SURE.He said also that the "Mud Balls" they used were easier to play with, however, didn't spread as well (in 14.1) in breaking out the pack.

I THINK (with emphasis on the I THINK) that he said that Mosconi either played or made his legendary high run on an 8' table and not a 10 footer.I could be wrong on this table dimmension thing and I stand corrected if I am.


I'm not looking for an argument here, however, maybe some of our more knowledgable pool personal here can verify yours and my observations.The whole thing now has me curious.Take care,RJ

I wouldn't dream of arguing with you RJ. And, if you have it on video from Grady that they played with 5" pockets then so be it. I heard the story that Willie Mosconi, in an effort to make the game more fun for recreational players, worked with table manufacturers, Brunswick, to make the table smaller and have bigger pockets so they would be more successful at making balls. His idea was that if players with less talent could pocket more balls that they would enjoy the game more and eventually play more. If this is wrong, then I've been laboring over false information for a long time.

 

[recoveryjones]

I wouldn't dream of arguing with you RJ. And, if you have it on video from Grady that they played with 5" pockets then so be it. I heard the story that Willie Mosconi, in an effort to make the game more fun for recreational players, worked with table manufacturers, Brunswick, to make the table smaller and have bigger pockets so they would be more successful at making balls. His idea was that if players with less talent could pocket more balls that they would enjoy the game more and eventually play more. If this is wrong, then I've been laboring over false information for a long time.

Hi Rick,

I did a little more investigating and you were right about the conditons for the most part that Greenleaf played under.Yes the tables in HIS era were 5 x10 as he was older than Mosconi.

Although Mosconi played on 5x10's things did change later on and the tables became smaller and pockets bigger in Mosconi's time.

Ralph grennleaf had things much tougher for most of his career than Mosconi. Would have loved to have seen him play.
take care, RJ

 

[yobagua]

Diliberto also said everyone was from earth and Efren was from another planet. Its like the old Jack Johnston thing. "Yeah he's not that good". "Cant be". Even he himself like Trevino always does some self effacing. People dont want to admit or know how good Efren really is. Wont give him his due without all there icons like Archer, Hall, and Sigel. People are waiting for Tiger Woods to bust at the seams just as they were so happy the Williams sisters didnt make a couple of finals. Efren is as good as anyone of your top boys. And has proved it by beating them. He is the most feared in the long term cash game. Reds was his first tournament in the US lets see anyone go to the Phillipines and play everyone in town and come out winner. You couldnt get over the rice. Tell it to Efren's face. Tell him he is not good as Archer, Hall, or whomever.

 

[Rickw]

Diliberto also said everyone was from earth and Efren was from another planet. Its like the old Jack Johnston thing. "Yeah he's not that good". "Cant be". Even he himself like Trevino always does some self effacing. People dont want to admit or know how good Efren really is. Wont give him his due without all there icons like Archer, Hall, and Sigel. People are waiting for Tiger Woods to bust at the seams just as they were so happy the Williams sisters didnt make a couple of finals. Efren is as good as anyone of your top boys. And has proved it by beating them. He is the most feared in the long term cash game. Reds was his first tournament in the US lets see anyone go to the Phillipines and play everyone in town and come out winner. You couldnt get over the rice. Tell it to Efren's face. Tell him he is not good as Archer, Hall, or whomever.

No Yobagua, have them put up the cash!! LOL! Joiner was supposed to be just the best money-playing 1h player on the planet until Efren not only beat him but beat him with a spot to boot! Ha Ha!!

 

[yobagua]

Youre right Rick sorry for all the animosity. But am tired of people putting down Efren. Parica has always been my favorite but why do people feel a need to put someone down because they have such an allegiance to others. Buddy or Sigel wouldnt hesitate to give Efren his just due. Why say he is a cut below them. Efren has changed the face of nine ball and one pocket. He has given so much to the game. Why try to chop him down?

 

[Rickw]

I don't know Yobagua. I've watched Efren play in person in tournaments and gambling and he is not only a great player but someone to aspire to be like. His persona at the table is totally non-threatening. When he does mess up, which is seldom, he will laugh at himself. I just love his attitude!!

 

[Celtic]

No Yobagua, have them put up the cash!! LOL! Joiner was supposed to be just the best money-playing 1h player on the planet until Efren not only beat him but beat him with a spot to boot! Ha Ha!!

Efren is almost assuredly the best one pocket player ever. I dont think many have tried to argue against it. His spotting Joyner and then not just beating him but drilling him is nuts. That is one game where the break does not hurt him and his imagination for shots makes him the best for sure.

 

[Celtic]

Buddy or Sigel wouldnt hesitate to give Efren his just due. Why say he is a cut below them.

Can you please quote or link where anyone ever said Efren was a cut below Sigel or Hall or anyone? When asking who is best between two top legendary players people are going to have opinions both ways but when comparing two top players like this it is pretty safe to say they are both pretty equal as top calibre players. It is like comparing Tiger and Jack, one might feel Tiger in his prime has the edge, or Jack has the edge, but either way it is pretty clear they are peers of equal stature just to bring up the debate in the first place.