Elbow drop AFTER contact..? Help? Vids uploaded

FranCrimi said:
I'm all in favor of your doing what's best for you, but 15 inches??
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The closest I go is about 12...


I've had like the worst hour of trying to film stuff for this thread... I don't ever want to try 8-10" again lol...


If its on the rail, well, sure. I have no issues there.

If its a center table shot where I can go to 12-14"?? No way in hell am I opting for 8-10...
 
ddadams said:
The closest I go is about 12...


I've had like the worst hour of trying to film stuff for this thread... I don't ever want to try 8-10" again lol...


If its on the rail, well, sure. I have no issues there.

If its a center table shot where I can go to 12-14"?? No way in hell am I opting for 8-10...
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How are you going to shoot when the cue ball is near a rail or 'in' a pocket or balls prevent a 15" bridge?
 
If I go any closer than 12 at MAX I find myself bumping the cueball unintentionally often.
 
If you really have only been playing for 18 months, your stroke is impressive and you'll become a fine player. You keep the cue very level, which is commendable.

Your stroke will become more compact as your muscle memory develops and your self-confidence improves. I only watched a couple of shots but it doesn't look like you're hitting the CB crisply yet - that will also come with time.

Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on what other people say, but maybe that's just me.
 
Ron Swanson said:
If you really have only been playing for 18 months, your stroke is impressive and you'll become a fine player. You keep the cue very level, which is commendable.

Your stroke will become more compact as your muscle memory develops and your self-confidence improves. I only watched a couple of shots but it doesn't look like you're hitting the CB crisply yet - that will also come with time.

Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on what other people say, but maybe that's just me.
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Trying to do all of this stuff recommended has really put my confidence in the shitter.


I take one or two innings at most per rack of 8 or 9 on a bar box. Tonight I was averaging 5-6.


I really regret making this thread. A couple of small things helped, but over all I feel worse off.
 
Sometimes we have to stop & take a step back before we think & decide & then go in different direction.

Sometimes going left only takes us to a one story stairway to the laundry room of a high rise hotel while going right takes us to the express elevator to the Penthouse Suite.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Sometimes we have to stop & take a step back before we think & decide & then go in different direction.

Sometimes going left only takes us to a one story stairway to the laundry room of a high rise hotel while going right takes us to the express elevator to the Penthouse Suite.
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Sometimes we need to realize that what works for someone else doesn't always work for us.


Maybe I'll take more out of this later on but as of the moment I need to get back to before this thread.


Either way regardless of what happens I know myself and I know I'm going to put the time in to go well beyond where I am right now. No matter what. I want it too bad.
 
ddadams said:
Trying to do all of this stuff recommended has really put my confidence in the shitter.


I take one or two innings at most per rack of 8 or 9 on a bar box. Tonight I was averaging 5-6.


I really regret making this thread. A couple of small things helped, but over all I feel worse off.
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When you said you would do what it takes, we took you serious. Anytime you change things, even for the better, it will take some time to incorporate them. Until they become automatic, you will be thinking about what to do. That is why it is not recommended to play while training. You will only get disapointed. If you really are serious about getting perfect, do a search on Jesse Allred and see what he did FOR A YEAR! You aren't going to get overnight results. If that's what you expect, you are in the wrong game.
 
ddadams said:
Sometimes we need to realize that what works for someone else doesn't always work for us.


Maybe I'll take more out of this later on but as of the moment I need to get back to before this thread.


Either way regardless of what happens I know myself and I know I'm going to put the time in to go well beyond where I am right now. No matter what. I want it too bad.
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That's good.

Sounds like you will find your own way.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
Neil said:
When you said you would do what it takes, we took you serious. Anytime you change things, even for the better, it will take some time to incorporate them. Until they become automatic, you will be thinking about what to do. That is why it is not recommended to play while training. You will only get disapointed. If you really are serious about getting perfect, do a search on Jesse Allred and see what he did FOR A YEAR! You aren't going to get overnight results. If that's what you expect, you are in the wrong game.
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Thank you for your reply will look into it.
 
LOADED/COILED and Ready to FIRE!

ddadams said:
So I've really, really been putting in table time after my lessons with Scott Lee and it just kind of struck me the other week.

I didn't use my wrist nearly as much as I should, and it was kind of like an epiphany.

However I've noticed that my follow through has seemingly gotten longer but feels more fluid, but after video taping myself doing 9 shots over and over, I've noticed that with the added wrist movement, there's elbow drop after contact.

Scott told me this wasn't an issue AFTER contact as long as it was consistent and by the look of how SVB and the other pros I see with "good" stroke fundamentals they all seem to have a drop?


I've made two videos.

They mostly go with 9 shots, 3 soft (top, center, low) 3 medium, 3 hard.

I threw in a couple extras because I was upset with the way that I hit the ball and I apologize for adding more on some.


The first video is "with" elbow drop after contact and me really focusing on utilizing my wrist and following all the way through to my breast for a finish position.

The second is my 'old' stroke with less wrist movement and less "drop" after contact.


I can do both right now very regularly but I need to know... Which way should I actually practice and only use???


I'm leaning towards the "with elbow drop" video stroke. It just seems more fluid when I'm actually playing...

For the inevitable questions as to what's on the end of my stick it's the 3rd eye stroke trainer from Joe Tucker.


With
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNsgbYmcRL8&feature=youtu.be

"without"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEcnvamDV9E&feature=youtu.be
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Your stroke doesn't appear to have the necessary "stored" energy, therefore you have to use your elbow, and sometimes shoulder (on power draw shots) when you should be able to get plenty of acceleration from just your forearm/wrist/hand/fingers to make any type of shot.....after all the balls just weigh 6 oz's, so a "wrist flick" should be supply ample cue speed IF YOU "load" the cue as you get down on the shot.....in other words:


I'd recommend is to practice pulling the cue back as you get down and time it where the tip is almost touching your bridge hand when it touches down on the table.

It's like drawing a bow, if you're ever shot any archery. You wouldn't want to come down to aim at the target, then pull the string back to get the "coil," you'd want to draw the string back AS YOU COME DOWN, that way it's coiled and ready to fire when you get to your "target line".......measure up to the cue ball and you'll be LOADED/COILED and Ready to FIRE! Then you will know longer worry about your shoulder, arm or elbow.....and your stoke will start to get a lot of positive attention when you practice. 'The Game is the Teacher'

bow-with-arrow_t
 
ddadams said:
Thank you for your reply will look into it.
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http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3331897#post3331897 post #10

I stand corrected, it was 6 months, not a year. Post #3 http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3328621#post3328621

Just a couple of posts there to give you something to think about. And, if you don't know who he is, click on his videos in his avatar.

one more- post #23 http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3020980#post3020980
 
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CJ Wiley said:
Your stroke doesn't appear to have the necessary "stored" energy, therefore you have to use your elbow, and sometimes shoulder (on power draw shots) when you should be able to get plenty of acceleration from just your forearm/wrist/hand/fingers to make any type of shot.....after all the balls just weigh 6 oz's, so a "wrist flick" should be supply ample cue speed IF YOU "load" the cue as you get down on the shot.....in other words:


I'd recommend is to practice pulling the cue back as you get down and time it where the tip is almost touching your bridge hand when it touches down on the table.

It's like drawing a bow, if you're ever shot any archery. You wouldn't want to come down to aim at the target, then pull the string back to get the "coil," you'd want to draw the string back AS YOU COME DOWN, that way it's coiled and ready to fire when you get to your "target line".......measure up to the cue ball and you'll be LOADED/COILED and Ready to FIRE! Then you will know longer worry about your shoulder, arm or elbow.....and your stoke will start to get a lot of positive attention when you practice. 'The Game is the Teacher'

bow-with-arrow_t
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I like the idea of setting up like this. In dead whack, I turn down into the shot, measure up to the cue ball, and pull the trigger. Don't really need any practice strokes.

I never really thought about loading potential energy before the stroke. Losing unwanted shoulder movement would be a positive thing on those long draw shots.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
I like the idea of setting up like this. In dead whack, I turn down into the shot, measure up to the cue ball, and pull the trigger. Don't really need any practice strokes.

I never really thought about loading potential energy before the stroke. Losing unwanted shoulder movement would be a positive thing on those long draw shots.

Best,
Mike
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Mike,

Some methods with a certain set up, have potential energy built in but some focus on keeping that energy pent up from being released. To me that is unnatural & counter intuitive. A batter does not coil his body & then just swing with his arms, nor does a golfer, or at least they should not do so. Why 'coil' or 'load' if you are not going use the energy created by that loading up of energy.?

Best,
Rick
 
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Mikjary said:
I like the idea of setting up like this. In dead whack, I turn down into the shot, measure up to the cue ball, and pull the trigger. Don't really need any practice strokes.

I never really thought about loading potential energy before the stroke. Losing unwanted shoulder movement would be a positive thing on those long draw shots.

Best,
Mike
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If you do what CJ said, there is no "measuring up" to the cue ball. Odd that he says that, because nobody, including him, do that.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Mike,

Some methods with a certain set up, have potential energy built in but some focus on keeping that energy pent up from being released. To me that is unnatural & counter intuitive. A batter does not coil his body & then just swing with his arms, nor does a golfer, or at least they should not do so. Why 'coil' or 'load' if you are not going use the energy created by that loading up of energy.?

Best,
Rick
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Rick,

I'm talking more about being in a static position before you really do anything stroke wise. The pool backstroke is quite different than most other activities.

I've had to retrain myself after a 20 year pool hiatus to quiet down my body movements so I don't have spasms halfway through my stroking. :grin: Swinging a baseball bat was one of the culprits, too. 90+ mph fastballs require a lot of parts to be in sync. :grin:

The static position I'm talking about would be grip related and how I end up before I take my backstroke. CJ's point about transferring your feeling of power away from the bigger muscle groups is the opposite of what I've trained for in baseball and martial arts. Interesting, and it makes sense on some embarrassing level. lol Not counter intuitive...basically what I try to do now.

Isolating the feeling of power into the arm area sounds simple enough, but is probably individually problematic. I would have to reflect on this to come up with an approach that might be right for me.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Rick,

I'm talking more about being in a static position before you really do anything stroke wise. The pool backstroke is quite different than most other activities.

I've had to retrain myself after a 20 year pool hiatus to quiet down my body movements so I don't have spasms halfway through my stroking. :grin: Swinging a baseball bat was one of the culprits, too. 90+ mph fastballs require a lot of parts to be in sync. :grin:

The static position I'm talking about would be grip related and how I end up before I take my backstroke. CJ's point about transferring your feeling of power away from the bigger muscle groups is the opposite of what I've trained for in baseball and martial arts. Interesting, and it makes sense on some embarrassing level. lol Not counter intuitive...basically what I try to do now.

Isolating the feeling of power into the arm area sounds simple enough, but is probably individually problematic. I would have to reflect on this to come up with an approach that might be right for me.

Best,
Mike
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Mike,

I was referring to how the upper arm relates to the body. The upper arm 'wants' to be along side of the body. That is it's natural position. So, when one bends down into a shot position & the upper arm from the elbow to the shoulder is then behind & above the line of the body it, the upper arm, naturally 'wants' to return to along side of the body. It is a form of stored energy that some want to keep pent up & unreleased. To me that is unnatural, contrived, counter intuitive & a waste of energy.

Best,
Rick
 
Neil said:
If you do what CJ said, there is no "measuring up" to the cue ball. Odd that he says that, because nobody, including him, do that.
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I think it's mentally stimulating when somebody comes up with a simplistic example of looking at something in a new light. These thoughts trigger many improvements for me when I let them into my old psyche. I try to always keep an open mind.

Best,
Mike
 
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